1911 observations and questions

[CZP07]

So, Went to the range Saturday with my son. Took my new Nighthawk trooper and (new to me) ed brown cobra carry. Also my DW's Vigil and Valor bob-tail
My son brought his Nighthawk GRP.
using wilson combat, ed brown and Nighthawk magazines. Shooting standard 230 grn FMJ. Distance of 10 yards
My groupings where much tighter using any of these than they have been with my sigs, kimbers or springfield. I think thats to be expected.
The nighthawk seemed to group better after about 75rnds, but seemed to shoot lower than expected. I had same result shooting my son's GRP. has anyone else noticed these shoot low? or will it get better with usage?
the Ed brown grouped well, but to the left. That's on me. Action was like butter on this one. I think previous owner broke her in well
While I'd like to say the more expensive pistols shot much better and are worth the money, I really can't. The Wessons kept close enough to realize that they are exceptional value. While close examination of the other two will show the better fit and finish, for more than 1/2 the price i'd be hard pressed to kick the DW's out of bed. And for a firearm essentially new out of box I am delighted
I do need to put a higher viz sight (thinking fiber optic) on the ed brown and vigil. I'll be shooting in daylight. Anyone recommend a color and good smith local to me (Aloha) that would place on the ed brown without marring the receiver?

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[solv3nt]

If it's shooting low, you can swap out the sights if they're not standard. With custom/semi-custom 1911's, you're paying for hand fitting and forged parts. You are not paying for accuracy. Hopefully, you're paying for reliability.

@Velzey for custom work.

 

[Mikej]

If it's shooting low, you can swap out the sights if they're not standard. With custom/semi-custom 1911's, you're paying for hand fitting and forged parts. You are not paying for accuracy. Hopefully, you're paying for reliability.

@Velzey for custom work.

Didn't you get the memo? Tim is on a break to catch up, and reacquaint himself with peace and relaxation.

 

[solv3nt]

Didn't you get the memo? Tim is on a break to catch up, and reacquaint himself with peace and relaxation.

Well tell him to get back to work

 

[Catfishmoon]

So, Went to the range Saturday with my son. Took my new Nighthawk trooper and (new to me) ed brown cobra carry. Also my DW's Vigil and Valor bob-tail
My son brought his Nighthawk GRP.
using wilson combat, ed brown and Nighthawk magazines. Shooting standard 230 grn FMJ. Distance of 10 yards
My groupings where much tighter using any of these than they have been with my sigs, kimbers or springfield. I think thats to be expected.

I would expect the more expensive pistols listed would have a higher grade of fit and finish than the Sig, Springfield or Kimber, but I am surprised to see all of the expensive ones have a tighter group at 10 yards. That is not very far with a .45 acp and the quality is good on a Sig, Springfield, etc. It may be related to sights or how the particular gun fits your particular hand, or those brands may simply be more accurate.
Nice group of handguns you guys own.....

 

[Member 34319]

Did you get any sort of verification target with these pistols?

I ask because the more $$$$ that is involved usually means better everything. So if it is shooting low or anywhere else for that matter compared to the verification target, it's likely you. Especially after a day of switching back and forth from a bunch of similar, but different guns.

If there wasn't a verification target and or you are shooting at a different distance than the verification target, you might have some work ahead of you. Likely different sights, that would be my first thought.

If you don't feel comfortable doing something like sights on your own. The options for that are not limited in this area. Even some gun shops do basic services like that.

Tim Copeland out in Estacada is well known on this website as being the best smith in the area, but recently has taken a step back to attempt to catch up.

With that said, folks like Jeremy of Lucky Sporting Goods @LuckySG here on this forum can likely perform a sight swap for you with ease. He is a home based Ffl in Banks that also performs cerakote. He has also taken a bit of a step back from things, but last I talked he is still running his cerakote and ffl. He is also one of the good guys on here and in the gun community. I wouldn't hesitate recommending him.

 

[CZP07]

Didn't you get the memo? Tim is on a break to catch up, and reacquaint himself with peace and relaxation.

yes. i saw he's out for awhile

Did you get any sort of verification target with these pistols?

I ask because the more $$$$ that is involved usually means better everything. So if it is shooting low or anywhere else for that matter compared to the verification target, it's likely you. Especially after a day of switching back and forth from a bunch of similar, but different guns.

If there wasn't a verification target and or you are shooting at a different distance than the verification target, you might have some work ahead of you. Likely different sights, that would be my first thought.

If you don't feel comfortable doing something like sights on your own. The options for that are not limited in this area. Even some gun shops do basic services like that.

Tim Copeland out in Estacada is well known on this website as being the best smith in the area, but recently has taken a step back to attempt to catch up.

With that said, folks like Jeremy of Lucky Sporting Goods @LuckySG here on this forum can likely perform a sight swap for you with ease. He is a home based Ffl in Banks that also performs cerakote. He has also taken a bit of a step back from things, but last I talked he is still running his cerakote and ffl. He is also one of the good guys on here and in the gun community. I wouldn't hesitate recommending him.

yes. the trooper came with the test. two rounds dead center, so close they look like one hole. distance 12-yards. Documented 12/1/22. The ed brown I got used and did not have the verification. I don't see any for the dan wessons at first glance.
I had forgotten about jeremy. He has done cerakote work for me before. I'll reach out and see if he is willing to replace sights.Thanks!

 

[Mikej]

Well tell him to get back to work

I don't want to wake him up.

I did send him a note. I've had dealings with Tim and really enjoyed visiting with him. Top-notch guy in my view.

 

[Certaindeaf]

So, Went to the range Saturday with my son. Took my new Nighthawk trooper and (new to me) ed brown cobra carry. Also my DW's Vigil and Valor bob-tail
My son brought his Nighthawk GRP.
using wilson combat, ed brown and Nighthawk magazines. Shooting standard 230 grn FMJ. Distance of 10 yards
My groupings where much tighter using any of these than they have been with my sigs, kimbers or springfield. I think thats to be expected.
The nighthawk seemed to group better after about 75rnds, but seemed to shoot lower than expected. I had same result shooting my son's GRP. has anyone else noticed these shoot low? or will it get better with usage?
the Ed brown grouped well, but to the left. That's on me. Action was like butter on this one. I think previous owner broke her in well
While I'd like to say the more expensive pistols shot much better and are worth the money, I really can't. The Wessons kept close enough to realize that they are exceptional value. While close examination of the other two will show the better fit and finish, for more than 1/2 the price i'd be hard pressed to kick the DW's out of bed. And for a firearm essentially new out of box I am delighted
I do need to put a higher viz sight (thinking fiber optic) on the ed brown and vigil. I'll be shooting in daylight. Anyone recommend a color and good smith local to me (Aloha) that would place on the ed brown without marring the receiver?

View attachment 1414867

The minimum sample size for a statistical analysis is 30 so buy 25 more and then re-submit your results.

 

[MTpockets]

The nighthawk seemed to group better after about 75rnds, but seemed to shoot lower than expected. I had same result shooting my son's GRP. has anyone else noticed these shoot low? or will it get better with usage?

If the Nighthawk sighted for Center Hold and you were using a 6 O'clock Hold, the results would be low impacts.

Edit to add the Combat Hold...

 

[CZP07]

If the Nighthawk sighted for Center Hold and you were using a 6 O'clock Hold, the results would be low impacts.
View attachment 1415031

i'm not sure how it was sighted, but i tried a center hold with all of them. This gives me some options to try next time though. Thank you
Probably a lot cheaper trying this than buying 25 more.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Back when I was a kid my two much older retired Marine mentors let me shoot one of their brand new Colt 1911's.. they were barely hitting the 3x3' paper at 25yds.
Well, I shot a 4" group.. 1"x4" because I used a center hold for some and 6:00 for others.
They were flabbergasted and thought they had some sort of miracle weapon and the owner then rushed it off home to then use it to weigh down his favorite velvet pillow or something for the rest of his life.

 

[galvweld]

I've helped novice shooters by having them use sandbags/rest to learn where their new pistol hits. It helped them get control and build confidence. Recently a guy asked me to shoot his new GP 100 after him trying off a rest. He was really missing at ten yards. I make no claim to my knowledge or abilities. I fired off hand and was surprised by the sights being so bad. I used sandbags to confirm. Minor sights adjustment and he was accurate for a beginner. This method lets me know early on where a handgun is going to hit. All this is worth what you paid for it.

 

[solv3nt]

All this is worth what you paid for it.

I want my ten seconds back

 

[galvweld]

Incoming, one at a time.

 

[TTSX]

You get what you pay for, up to a point. There are diminishing returns very, very quickly and I've found those returns to slow after $1500 or so, or at least only be noticable to the more experienced of which I'm not.

My 1911 with the tightest slide/frame fit is a Philippine made model. It's also the least accurate with any load. More like a pattern. Tight tolerances do not necessarily equal better results.

I would be curious to see how more run of the mill 1911s would have done at your shooting trip compared to those much, much more expensive and nicer models

 

[solv3nt]

You get what you pay for, up to a point. There are diminishing returns very, very quickly and I've found those returns to slow after $1500 or so, or at least only be noticable to the more experienced of which I'm not.

My 1911 with the tightest slide/frame fit is a Philippine made model. It's also the least accurate with any load. More like a pattern. Tight tolerances do not necessarily equal better results.

I would be curious to see how more run of the mill 1911s would have done at your shooting trip compared to those much, much more expensive and nicer models

I think that the Dan Wesson is probably the Pinnacle of the production 1911's. Colt uses a lot of plastic and MIM these days. I've read that the RIA is supposed to be a solid 1911, but I have never played with one.

 

[Cerberus Group]

There are many areas of tolerance on a 1911 that need attention if one wants accuracy;

On the barrel there are 5 areas that need proper fitting;

1 - Lower lugs and link, which force the barrel in the slide lugs.

2 - Barrel hood into breech face.. both width and length.

3 - Muzzle fit to barrel bushing.

4 - Barrel bushing fit to slide.

5 - Barrel lugs fit to slide lugs.

Slide to frame fit always helps as well. I've found the biggest bang for the buck for accuracy on a 1911 is the barrel bushing fit.

Having all the above tolerances checked and in spec is crucial for consistent lockup of the system for consistent accuracy...unfortunately some production 1911s fall short.

 

[BillyJean]

yes. i saw he's out for awhile

yes. the trooper came with the test. two rounds dead center, so close they look like one hole. distance 12-yards. Documented 12/1/22. The ed brown I got used and did not have the verification. I don't see any for the dan wessons at first glance.
I had forgotten about jeremy. He has done cerakote work for me before. I'll reach out and see if he is willing to replace sights.Thanks!

The Nighthawk should have 3 or 5 rounds in the target, so maybe same holes.

Ed Browns don't ship with target but they don't let a gun out the door without shooting 1" or 1.5" at 25 yards (I forget, but it's in the user manual). I find them to be most consistant and the best value of the semi-customs. ACW is right there as well, though their prices have gone way up.

Nice write up. Once you get above a Dan Wesson, it's really about fit, finish, and style, and you end up spending a lot to go from 95% perfect (DW) to 98% perfect (semi-customs), and even more to get that last 99% in a full custom. The Wessons are a lot of gun for the money.

 

[TTSX]

I think that the Dan Wesson is probably the Pinnacle of the production 1911's. Colt uses a lot of plastic and MIM these days. I've read that the RIA is supposed to be a solid 1911, but I have never played with one.

Mine isn't an RIA, though for all I know it was made by the same people with the same machinery in the same factory. All it says is "made in the Philippines." It's a Taylor and Co by brand. It's a very nice pistol for what it is, came with every bell and whistle for $500ish, just can't group worth a darn with any ammo I've tried. Maybe it'll smooth out, though as it sits it's kind of my proof gun when testing new load recipes