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1874 Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 *OFF THE MARKET**

Discussion in 'Rifle Classifieds' started by Medic!, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    45-70 Trapdoor Springfield. serial number is 25,xxx.
    Gun was part of a trade and It's just not My type of gun. so it's up for sale or trade.
    I don't know mutch about these guns. It looks to be in like new condition.
    $850 or best offer.

    ***OFF THE MARKET*** Im taking the gun off the market until I figure what its worth! Thread is locked.
     
  2. taylor

    taylor Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    It looks like a Re-make of the Springfield. Those definetly are not issue sights back then. Does it say anything else on the barrel? The Re-makes of the carbine are pretty costly themselves and very accurate I've heard.
     
  3. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Maybe my eyes aren't up to par, or the pic is not detailed enough, but I see nothing wrong with that rear sight. In the shape this gun is in, I would assume it has been reblued. My Springfield carbine has a very similar rear sight (at least from what I can see here). Mine is a gun assembled from original Springfield armory parts, put together in the 1960's or '70's, and appears shiny brand new.

    Harrington and Richardson did replicas of the Trapdoor, both in carbine and rifle, and additionally in an Officer's Model, one of which I also have.

    The Springfield Trapdoor holds a unique position in western history, as it was these guns that were carried into battle by Custer's men in the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

    If this gun is serial numbered at 24,xxx, that would make it 1874 production, and would qualify this gun as "possible" in the serial number range of actual guns in the Custer Battle (1876).

    I have an excellent book for researching these guns, and would like to see this gun up close.
     
  4. taylor

    taylor Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    Origional sights on 1873 were stepped then you lifted the ladder for more distance. Also that screw on top of the foregrip is something I never saw before.
    Even if its a Pedersoli or Uberti it would be worth more to me than an origional because of its ability to handle modern loads for shooting.
     
  5. orygun

    orygun West Linn Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    No matter what gun or when it was made, the design of a "trapdoor" is what limits the pressure of the ammo. Do not use this type of gun for anything hotter than a standard load, which is about a 400gr bullet at 1300fps. There is also a 300 gr bullet at about 1800fps that's ok to use in this type of gun.
     
    tcs-5 likes this.
  6. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    The plum blue on trapdoor has me believing this gun has been reblued. The overall condition is fantastic with a like new barrel. No frosting and strong lands and groves.
    The gun may have been put together from parts as a shooter,I dont know. I know the finish is very old and the gun is not a replica. I think my price reflects it's not origonal.
    Please make me an offer You feel is fair. I can provide more detail pictures if nessary. and the gun is avalible for inspection.
    I am les flexible with trade offers. Please offer me $850 in trade value. Guns and ammo only.
     
  7. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Even if its a Pedersoli or Uberti it would be worth more than an origional because of its ability to handle modern loads for shooting.

    Uh, no. And on two counts, no.

    If you were to go forward in life with plans on putting "modern loads" (interpreted to be higher pressure loads than appropriate in an old Trapdoor) in ANY trapdoor Springfield, old or new, Orygun just saved your life (or at least a good gun's life). Now, many "modern" loads for .45-70 are actually loaded way down just because these guns are so durable and there are so many of them still around. But don't go tossing "lever-evolution" or such modern loads in any Trapdoor, Uberti or otherwise.

    Secondly, a good Trapdoor Springfield, especially a carbine,in ORIGINAL condition (not refinished or reblued) will instantly bring much more money than any replica.

    Both large head screws seen in the pics (for the saddle/lanyard ring slide and on the tang) are appropriate.
     
  8. taylor

    taylor Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about asskicking magnum loads, I simply mean you can shoot stronger Cowboy loads without worrying about damaging an antique rifle or yourself.
    An origional Springfield I would shoot Blackpowder exclusively.
    A Reproduction I would move up a bit in pressure to low level smokeless, Although Modern replica makers state you can shoot anything short of magnum loads, Which would make it worth more to ME.
    Does that meet with your discriminating approval , And do I have my life back without needing being saved.
    Reproductions by Davide Pedersoli are selling for $2000, which may or not exceed an origionals value.
    The Screw on the tang is not an origional type used in the 1870s, you can see it doesn't meet flush and may or not be the only modern part on the rifle.
     
  9. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Safe smokeless loads that do not exceed pressure of orignal blackpowder loads can easily be assembled, and as noted, predominated almost all .45-70 factory loads until recently. An owner of an original Trapdoor need not in any way limit himself to blackpowder only, unless it is a personal preference or he finds his gun actually shoots better by doing so. "Moving up" from blackpowder to "low level smokeless" implies that smokeless powder brings with it automatically a higher pressure than blackpowder. This is not the case. The pressure development curve may be different. The actual pressure can be lower or equal.

    I will assume that you have a modern replica Trapdoor that came with a factory instruction book that specifically states you "can shoot anything short of magnum loads". If that is the case, then you have educated me, and for that I am thankful. I'm not certain what a "magnum load" in a .45-70 is, and so I need to do more research in this terminology that you have discovered in current manufacturers' literature that to this point I have missed.

    I do load extensively for the .45-70, in everything from Trapdoors, Winchesters (original), Sharps (original and replica), a modern Marlin, Browning Hi-Wall, Ruger Number One and a Siamese Mauser. These guns range in action strength precisely as I have listed them. I assemble handloads with appropriate pressure for the action strength of each (in blackpowder/lead to smokeless/jacketed). I am continually educating myself about this cartridge, and bellieve I keep up, but I have yet to run into the term "magnum loads" in reference to the .45-70. I will seek to remedy my research at your prompting. I might even start calling my Siamese Mauser .45-70 loads (at the top of the power range) to be "magnum loads". I kind of like it, and if its good enough for Pedersoli, its good enough for me.

    As to the value of an original Springfield Carbine, you will have to pardon me, as I only consulted a very poor reference: A Blue Book that is sadly seven years old. Seven years ago, the poorest condition 1873 Springfield Carbine listed (at 60% condition), is listed at $2000. Again, this is an old book, and I think prices have changed, so you must forgive me for using this reference. That price is undoubtedly inaccurate, and even more so when you consider the footnote that says "pre-1876 ("possible" Custer guns, as the displayed gun here would be if "original" as you compared to replicas) add 50% value".

    I also defer to your recent qualification of your original statement. Each of us has our preferences for what we will pay for. I now fully understand and respect that you would pay more for a replica in the condition as this gentleman's firearm than you would for an original, pre-1876 Springfield Carbine in the same condition, as you have clarified. Your preferences are obviously to shoot, with monetary considerations secondary. With that choice you would be in very rare company.

    As to the tang screw that has drawn our attention, once again I appreciate your noting that some of those screws were of a "rounded, flush" style, and so I once again opened an old book, (apologies again), "Trapdoor Springfield" by M.D. Waite and B.D. Ernst, 1980. Page 27 has a photograph of "Springfeld Carbine, Serial No. 29,383", presented as the very first photographic example in this book of a Carbine. The tang screw is high and exposed. Appropriate. (As is your noted "rounded,flush" style in some other photos in the book). This variation can be easily explained as many of these guns went back to the Armory to be re-built (they are still considered original Trapdoors). My only surprise now is that you "never saw that before", but we all learn (as I have from you) and that is the fun (at least for me).

    Finally, I sincerely hope that you do not arrive at this forum seeking anyone's approval. I certainly don't come here offering any.
     
  10. taylor

    taylor Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    Seriously I think anyone whose buying a gun should be made to articulate their position on this thread, I'd go so far as to suggest anyone whose considering parenthood, or running for public office. This is a critically important topic which has lain below the surface for too long- the world has a right to know!
     
  11. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Neither do I come here being superior (and I take some discomfort that you view me as so). I have made the appropriate apologies for my references (proof), and I admit that I did not include them in my first post before I took the privelege of contributing here. I am not certain that is a requirement universal in this forum, but you raise a very good point. Perhaps all opinions and hard information on this forum should be preceded by the proof. I await your setting of that example, while ashamedly admitting mine was late and out-of-date.
     
  12. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I see the "Edit Post" feature is a favorite, and I utilize it to some degree as well, but never to completely replace a post. Doing so might lead others to believe I was not quite proud of the original thought.

    I have here been called "superior", "contrary", and "discriminating", and accused of not providing proof. I have given a man credit for educating me (while awaiting documentation), his pointing out a variable feature on a gun, and have expressed respect for his preferences toward shooting rather than financial considerations. I have provided what I believe to be important safety information, that was first posted by another.

    Privately, contributors here on this forum have expressed their admiration for my continued courtesy and diplomacy, and presentation of information on this thread.
     
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