12ga reloading, some questions!

[Roundball58]

Thank you for all the input. I've read quite some stuff now about powders and their purpuse.

One thing that I couldn't quite find out about was the wads, except, of course to use a different one that holds more shot for steel to archive the same weight. The question is, do all the different shot sizes require different wads? Or is it just a matter of what fits in?

Steel shot wads have no cushion section because a) steel is so hard it does not deform on firing so cushioning is unnecessary b) as stated there is more room for the shot.

Steel shot wads are also thicker to protect the BORE from the steel shot pellets.

The good thing about steel is it doesn't deform and tends to pattern very well as the pellets stay round.

To achieve some degree of parity with lead, steel shot has to a) use larger pellets to make up for the lighter material b) be driven faster (+1400fps for steel vice 1200 fps lead).

Steel shot payload weights will generally be lighter than lead for the same size case. You just can't get enough steel in there to make up the difference and still get higher velocities.

Some of the newer non-toxic shot (HeviShot for example) is actually heavier than lead. Being hard like steel the correct wad for it is similar to steel shot wads with no cushion section. Being heavier than lead, you can use smaller shot sizes and identical or slightly slower velocities to maintain parity with lead. Being more dense means the shot column is shorter for an identical shot weight and that has to be adjusted with a filler wad to get the correct wad column height.

Lead being soft, lead shot wads are designed to protect the SHOT from deformation on firing, hence the cushioning section. The petals also protect the shot from being scrubbed flat on the barrel. Out of round pellets do not fly straight and leave the pattern early. You will also find variations of lead shot with various amounts of hardening (antimony) and coatings (copper and nickel) as well as buffering material to add to the shot charge. All designed to keep the pellets round and in the pattern.

Lead shot wads come in different configurations to accommodate different shot charge weights as well as to fit properly in a particular brand of case. Getting the correct wad column height is crucial to getting a good crimp. Shot size has nothing to do with wad selection.

If you're confused, good. This is why we don't freelance and just start dumping anything we have on hand into a case.

Again, get a good manual with a beginners how to section and RTFM.

 

[Knebel]

Will be getting a reloading manual, thank you for the input, it answered a lot of questions I had!

 

[Knebel]

Bought some green dot powder, 00buck and have some flex seal wads coming. Im holding off on the steel BBs for now.

I have some Federal 00Buck high brass that I'll be reloading with the buckshot. They are factory loads with quite some recoil. I opened one up to see how they are loaded and they have a seperate gas seal wad, shotcup and 9pellets with cushening material.

I also measured about 23grains of this round flake powder, anyone know what this is?

 

[Roundball58]

Yeah, it's the factory powder Federal uses in their 12 Ga. Buckshot shells.

Factory powders are not the same powders available to reloaders.

Shotgun shell reloaders should stick with published recipes from a reliable source. RTFM. Notice there is a theme in my posts.

 

[Knebel]

Yeah, it's the factory powder Federal uses in their 12 Ga. Buckshot shells.

Factory powders are not the same powders available to reloaders.

-WOULD HAVE NEVER GUESSED THAT...

Shotgun shell reloaders should stick with published recipes from a reliable source. RTFM. Notice there is a theme in my posts.

-CORRECT, BUT WON'T HELP WITH MY QUESTION ON WHAT KIND OF PROPELLANT THAT IS

-WHAT IF THERE IS NO RECIPE FOR CERTAIN COMPONENTS?

 

[oremike]

Federal is the only one that knows what that powder is and they're not telling. If there isn't a recipe for certain components then you need to get the right stuff to follow the book. Stomping your feet and typing in capitols isn't going to change that.

 

[Knebel]

Wasn't stomping my feet, just dividing my answers from the rest of the text.

Anyway, I understand to follow a recipe and load data, however,it was my impression that there might be people that know more about it than I do and might have their own personal experience. Stuff like, if you have a different wad, use less propellant or whatever.....But if everyone just follows a book with data,then I guess my question is answered here. Thank you very much!

 

[oremike]

I'm not going to say some, and even me, might step out of the manual a bit to craft their own loads, but that comes with working with the components and learning what's what. A manual is a great reference tool made by real honest to god experts with laboratories full of test equipment. The manual will give you a solid place to start. For example, looking in my Lyman Shotshell Reloading 5th edition handbook I see 26 different loads for 00 buck loads in Federal 2 3/4" cases. Part of the struggle with loading shotshells is figuring what components work with each other and by following the recipes that part is done for you. I've been rolling my own ammo for 40 years, the first place I go for data when building a load is a manual every-time. Just like right now when looking up the buckshot stuff I pulled a book off the shelf flipped through the pages and there is was.

 

[Knebel]

I do actually have load data that I've been following for the winchester wst, I just can't find anything that's specific to the type of shot. Or if that even matters. It's all just weight related. I also did some footwork on the powder burn rates,thats why i picked up some green dot too. I've then research the wads that are suggested. The big question is,if I have load data, that is for 1 1/8oz of payload and produces 8000psi, could a slightly smaller payload be used and be safe? I have purposedly picked load data that has the lowest PSI I could find, for safety margin.

From what I understand is that heavier loads create more pressure and have more grains of propellant. Which wouldn't that mean, using load data for 1 1/8oz and putting 1oz in should be relatively safe?

Also, is 1oz=1oz. #7 shot or 00buck? Given all the components are the same?

Going through load data and comparing loads, I also found, that substitution of primers can cause a 1500psi change in pressure, given same hull, powder and wad. Changing the wad only seems to yield 500-800psi variation. With low pressure loads, there should be some safety margine I guess.

 

[Capn Jack]

Well... I noticed that the shot is pretty pricey,yes. Paid $40 for 25lbs of #7. However, I'll probably switch to BBs or buckshot after that bag.
I have another reason too. I find it more environmental friendly to use the plastic hulls multiple times. Trying to do my part....

You guys start picking up your 12ga. hulls? What will I do for .22 targets?

 

[Roundball58]

I do actually have load data that I've been following for the winchester wst, I just can't find anything that's specific to the type of shot. Or if that even matters. It's all just weight related. I also did some footwork on the powder burn rates,thats why i picked up some green dot too. I've then research the wads that are suggested. The big question is,if I have load data, that is for 1 1/8oz of payload and produces 8000psi, could a slightly smaller payload be used and be safe? I have purposedly picked load data that has the lowest PSI I could find, for safety margin.

From what I understand is that heavier loads create more pressure and have more grains of propellant. Which wouldn't that mean, using load data for 1 1/8oz and putting 1oz in should be relatively safe?

Also, is 1oz=1oz. #7 shot or 00buck? Given all the components are the same?

Going through load data and comparing loads, I also found, that substitution of primers can cause a 1500psi change in pressure, given same hull, powder and wad. Changing the wad only seems to yield 500-800psi variation. With low pressure loads, there should be some safety margine I guess.

Going thru the load data tables and looking at pressure levels means you are comparing changes in components that have been proven to be with in safe limits. Any combination of components that resulted in an unsafe pressure level WAS NOT PUBLISHED. Your conclusion that changing wads results in only a 500-800 psi change may not hold true with another wad not listed.

Same goes for primer switching, the people that actually run the tests have found you can get over a 3000 LUP increase with just a change in the primer. Shotshell Primer Substitutions Effecting Patterns by: Tom Armbrust

There are other factors that go into pressure levels in shotgun shells not covered in the charts. The crimp can have a significant effect:

Effect of Crimp Depth on Shotshells | Hodgdon Reloading

Crimp depth of a finished shotshell reload is an important dimension to monitor for consistent ballistics and safe loads. This is one adjustment on a shotshell loading machine that is easy to overlook. An example of the correct crimp is what is found on factory loads. If your reload crimp is too...

www.hodgdonreloading.com

Note that the crimp alone took the load from safe to overpressure.

Changing the amount of shot can change the crimp if it is not adjusted for with filler wads.

Any one change may not result in an overpressure. Start stacking changes on top of each other in the wrong direction and you can end up over SAAMI limits.

It also works the other way. You can end up sticking a wad in the bore with an under pressure load. Crappy crimp, slow burning powders, cold weather, etc.. Embarrassing out in the duck blind with your buddies and a hazard if you fire a good shell with a wad stuck in the barrel.

This is why we stick to published recipes.

And yes, as I said in my second post, 1oz of 7's=1oz of 9's=1oz of 4's etc.. Shot weight matters, shot size does not. Where you might run into issues is with the larger sizes of buckshot. They don't just pour into the wad like sand, they have to be stacked. Some wads simply might not have the internal dimensions to physically accommodate stacking the larger buckshot. That's why oremike referenced specific load data for buckshot in the Lyman manual. They have already figured out what wads will accommodate the buckshot.

And where did you buy straight 7's? They're pretty hard to find, but make a pretty good grouse and chukar load.

 

[Knebel]

Sportsmans warehouse!? It was the only 7 bag in the bin... Using the same load data as for this #7 shot, same weight, I can get 6 00 buck in the same wad (slightly less weight) or 8 pellets if the wad "pedals" are cut off, thats the same weight then, same crimp. I bought some of the Ballistic Products flex seal, that will probably work better for the 00.