12 countries agree to give Ukraine 100 Leopard tanks

[rjmt]

ABC News: 12 countries ready to give about 100 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine once Germany approves

Twelve countries have agreed to give Ukraine around 100 German-made Leopard 2 tanks after Berlin approves, an unnamed high-ranking Ukrainian official told ABC News. The agreements were made at the Ramstein defense summit, according to the official cited by ABC

kyivindependent.com

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[The Heretic]

Sometimes I wonder if the US & Germany are delaying giving them tanks so the conflict will last longer and cost Russia more. Doesn't make sense to me and it is risky; could allow Russia to launch their counter offensive and overwhelm Ukraine.

Give them the tanks, ammo, anti-aircraft & jets, and let them kick Russia's posterior definitively - much better plan.

 

[The Heretic]

AP: Biden could announce Abrams tanks to Ukraine as soon as Wednesday

The Biden Administration could announce a decision to send more than 30 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine as soon as Wednesday, although it could take months for them to be delivered, the Associated Press reported on Jan. 24, citing United States officials.

kyivindependent.com

 

[kmk1012]

Sometimes I wonder if the US & Germany are delaying giving them tanks so the conflict will last longer and cost Russia more. Doesn't make sense to me and it is risky; could allow Russia to launch their counter offensive and overwhelm Ukraine.

Give them the tanks, ammo, anti-aircraft & jets, and let them kick Russia's posterior definitively - much better plan.

You're probably more right than you think about them prolonging the war. How much money is being awarded and made on this one conflict alone?

 

[JohnnyMac]

I hope none of the tanks have NATO's highest tech weapons on them because if they are captured you know China will be pumping them out by the thousands in 6 months.

 

[rjmt]

Sometimes I wonder if the US & Germany are delaying giving them tanks so the conflict will last longer and cost Russia more. Doesn't make sense to me and it is risky; could allow Russia to launch their counter offensive and overwhelm Ukraine.

Give them the tanks, ammo, anti-aircraft & jets, and let them kick Russia's posterior definitively - much better plan.

NATO countries have been training Ukrainians on these tanks since last year
now they are sending the tanks with trained crews to Ukraine
what good is a Leopard tank without trained crews, spare parts and support personnel

Russian tank crews who were captured in Ukraine stated they had a one day course on how to drive and fire, then sent into Ukraine in old T-72s
the Russians had a unique outlook on tank performance, the T-72 can go 40 MPH in forward, but only 3 MPH in reverse

Main Battle Tanks Reverse Speeds

I just wanted to share some data about that, if somebody has other information, I am obviously interested. FV4201 Chieftain Mk. V : 9,83 km/h FV4030/4 Challenger 1 : 36 km/h AMX-30B : 65 km/h Leclerc : 38 km/h M60A1 : 16 km/h M1A1 : 34,8 km/h Leopard : 24 km/h Leopard 2 : 31 km/h MBT70 / Kpz 70 /...

www.tanknet.org

 

[gmerkt]

As mere nothings, we can't know what's really going on. Here's my impression. NATO countries (other than "line states" like Poland and the Baltics) are hesitant because they are always feeling out how the Russians might act. Part of that hesitation is a build-up to let certain ideas sink in on the Russian side. Thinking maybe that surprises are less volatile. They want to give the Russians a good, long time to get used to ideas. Because there is always the Nuclear Option hanging over the situation. It's a weird thing, fighting (even by proxy) a conventional war knowing the other side has nukes. Since the initial Russian concept of a quick, easy victory has failed, it looks like their strategy now is to wait things out in a long, wearing, grinding struggle. Political attention spans can be long or short.

You're probably more right than you think about them prolonging the war. How much money is being awarded and made on this one conflict alone?

I don't know if prolongation is intentional, but defense businesses in the States will make money off the conflict. All those fancy artillery missles don't come cheap. Just about the time those defense contractors were wringing their hands over the ending of the 20 year long war in Afghanistan, along comes the Ukraine thing. They can't be crying about that. It will be paid for in more borrowed/printed US money.

I hope none of the tanks have NATO's highest tech weapons on them because if they are captured you know China will be pumping them out by the thousands in 6 months.

They've probably already got the tech information, from ethnic Chinese working in US government offices and in private industry manufacturers.

NATO countries have been training Ukrainians on these tanks since last year
now they are sending the tanks with trained crews to Ukraine
what good is a Leopard tank without trained crews, spare parts and support personnel

It's going to be an interesting logistical situation in Ukraine. They are wearing out old Soviet design equipment, and replacements are coming from NATO stocks. Sometimes different designs from different NATO member states.

 

[rjmt]

As mere nothings, we can't know what's really going on. Here's my impression. NATO countries (other than "line states" like Poland and the Baltics) are hesitant because they are always feeling out how the Russians might act. Part of that hesitation is a build-up to let certain ideas sink in on the Russian side. Thinking maybe that surprises are less volatile. They want to give the Russians a good, long time to get used to ideas. Because there is always the Nuclear Option hanging over the situation. It's a weird thing, fighting (even by proxy) a conventional war knowing the other side has nukes. Since the initial Russian concept of a quick, easy victory has failed, it looks like their strategy now is to wait things out in a long, wearing, grinding struggle. Political attention spans can be long or short.


I don't know if prolongation is intentional, but defense businesses in the States will make money off the conflict. All those fancy artillery missles don't come cheap. Just about the time those defense contractors were wringing their hands over the ending of the 20 year long war in Afghanistan, along comes the Ukraine thing. They can't be crying about that. It will be paid for in more borrowed/printed US money.


They've probably already got the tech information, from ethnic Chinese working in US government offices and in private industry manufacturers.


It's going to be an interesting logistical situation in Ukraine. They are wearing out old Soviet design equipment, and replacements are coming from NATO stocks. Sometimes different designs from different NATO member states.

even the Leopard 2 and British Challenger 2 tanks are 20 year old technology, yet superior to anything the Russians are sending to Ukraine
new generations German, British and Korean tanks are already coming into inventory in NATO countries
NATO is just purging their inventory of last generation armor

 

[Member 53328]

Let's worry about America first.

 

[titsonritz]

Over 25 years before Eisenhower warned against the establishment of a "military-industrial complex", Smedley Butler, (awarded the Medal of Honor twice BTW), warn us of the same in War Is A Racket

 

[rjmt]

Let's worry about America first.

View attachment 1352063

I heard that before 911
you think those oceans are going to isolate us from World Conflict?

 

[Member 53328]

It's a pathetic border conflict. Let them kill eachother.

Maybe we should "fund" our own border crisis.

 

[titsonritz]

I heard that before 911
you think those oceans are going to isolate us from World Conflict?

They've done pretty damn good so far. Some seem hell bent on changing that.

 

[bionic knees]

that ought to piss Boris off.

 

[The Heretic]

It's going to be an interesting logistical situation in Ukraine. They are wearing out old Soviet design equipment, and replacements are coming from NATO stocks. Sometimes different designs from different NATO member states.

By the end of the war, it's possible that the Ukraine war fighters will be the most cross trained/experienced fighters in Europe - having had so many different weapons systems from so many different countries (including making their own), including Russia, and be the most experienced in fighting Russian forces.

 

[The Heretic]

It's a pathetic border conflict. Let them kill eachother.

Maybe we should "fund" our own border crisis.

Much better to let Ukraine grind down the Bear than having our fighters on the front line.

 

[Member 53328]

Much better to let Ukraine grind down the Bear than having our fighters on the front line.

I'm good with that. But I'm not cool with my tax dollars funding it.

It's definitely helping inflation……..

My family and I get to suffer while politicians line their pockets.

 

[The Heretic]

I'm good with that. But I'm not cool with my tax dollars funding it.

Lesser of two evils.

Plus it has opened the eyes of European countries to the Russian threat. It is not just the USA that is arming up, preparing for a possible Russian invasion/conflict - it is all of NATO and several other countries. Just as the pandemic opened the eyes of the world to how dependent we are on China for so many things, and many countries/corporations are adjusting to that issue.

Russia and China are not our friends, much less our allies.

Then there is the "Peace Dividend". The Ukraine conflict opened a lot of eyes in that regard; they thought they could cut back on military spending - so much for that idea. It takes time to ramp up preparations for war.

 

[Member 53328]

Lesser of two evils.

Plus it has opened the eyes of European countries to the Russian threat. It is not just the USA that is arming up, preparing for a possible Russian invasion/conflict - it is all of NATO and several other countries. Just as the pandemic opened the eyes of the world to how dependent we are on China for so many things, and many countries/corporations are adjusting to that issue.

Russia and China are not our friends, much less our allies.

Then there is the "Peace Dividend". The Ukraine conflict opened a lot of eyes in that regard; they thought they could cut back on military spending - so much for that idea. It takes time to ramp up preparations for war.

European countries get to reap what they sow.

 

[Cavedweller]

By the end of the war, it's possible that the Ukraine war fighters will be the most cross trained/experienced fighters in Europe - having had so many different weapons systems from so many different countries (including making their own), including Russia, and be the most experienced in fighting Russian forces.

If there are any left...