Time to make SBS/SBR legal for all WA residents.

Discussion in 'NFA Weapons' started by Ranb, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    It is time to think about our next step after the success of House Bill 1016. I think we should organize to amend the law restricting short barreled rifles (SBR and short barreled shotguns (SBS). As the law already allows the police and military to use them, we cannot expect the same kind of support from WACOPS and WASPC.

    First we need a bill. RCW 9.41.190 now reads;

    Section (3) should be amended to read;

    This may take several years like it did to allow silencer use, but we have proved to ourselves that we can change the law in WA. We will need to prove that the violent use of registered SBS and SBR is very rare in WA. We can do this by contacting every county sheriff’s office and prosecuting attorney to get a list of cases and incidents involving SBS/SBR. After getting this list, we will need to investigate each case and determine whether or not the firearm was registered and legally possessed at the time it was used during the crime. This can be an expensive process as one county said it would cost $70 per hour to search the records.

    We need to schedule face to face meetings with each legislator and ask them what their views are on SBS/SBR and what it would take to get their vote. Face to face meetings work much better than letters or e-mail. Chances are we will need to educate most of our representatives to ensure they understand that these firearms are legal in the USA and rarely used in crime. We also need to make them understand that they are just as useful as their full size counterparts.

    There are lots of other things we need to discuss. Let's hear them.

    Ranb
  2. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Member

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    I think thats a good start. I have started putting some stuff together already that is a different angle. But I think that showing that there are few SBR SBS uses in crime will be very bennificial. I think if we can sit down and hammer out a plan we can start shortly after session ends contacting and meeting with people. They will not even entertain the idea of a meeting until then. I really don't see it taking years to get this through. Seems pretty simple. With the right information and the right presentation to the right people....

    I know I need to catch up on Work around the shop. Once I get caught back up I am game for getting this done.
  3. Nwcid

    Nwcid Moderator Staff Member Gold Supporter

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    I would like to help but I am on the east side so making it over is hard. I know to write letters and call but that is not my strong suite. Any help with a list of who to call and some help with letters/emails would help. If I had some kind of template I am sure I could get others too.

    One thing that was mentioned about the silencers it that is brings State law in line with Federal law..... That might help too.
  4. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    I have done some research at Access Washington - Welcome to the State of Washington website and downloaded the AWB bill from 1994. One thing I still need to find is the voting record for final passage. Senator Eide was one of the bill sponsors. We need to interview her and find out why she targeted the owners of registered SBS and SBR's in that bill. She probably did not know anything about NFA law at the time and might be open to not opposing a new bill to ease restrictions.

    Which legislator is the best for approaching to sponsor the new bill? I was thinking of Representative Blake. I am going to write him a letter this week and ask him his opinion.

    Ranb
  5. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg Well-Known Member

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    Excellent.. let's go on the offensive. I have longed for decades to see the current situation of positive pressure/energy towards restoring our lost liberties, and this is a small but wonderful step forward. Dare we hope to end the silly full auto ban, and reversal of the prohibition against concealed carry of long guns, which is a recent and senseless law?
  6. sigman

    sigman Member

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    I will be down with some more letters, e-mails and ftf with them.
  7. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    I think we need to keep MG separate from SBS/SBR. I will make an effort for any pro-gun bill.

    Ranb
  8. wyecoyote

    wyecoyote New Member

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    I agree. You could always use Senator Kline's statement against him. That this will bring WA law in line with Federal Law.
  9. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    I think I would like to try "courting" Senator Kline instead of taking an adversarial position. Changing RCW 9.41.190 to allow us to own SBS/SBR is just a matter of bringing state law into line with federal law.

    Ranb
  10. LWYM425

    LWYM425 Member

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    Ranb, I thought I was being a wise-guy suggesting that you would be interested in jumping right on the next issue without rest... I was blown away when I logged on here and see you've already started.

    I'm pretty good at following directions. Just tell me what to do. I'm up in Snohomish County.
    Justin
  11. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Member

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    Hey Ranb,

    I think we need to try to keep it as simple as possible again. Adding MG like you said will simply rub many people the wrong way. Keeping with the tag line this session of simply brings state law in accordance with federal law is what I hope can be enough to get a Senator or Rep to sign on. But I want to approach them well armed with much more. The hurdle I see is people google SBR and they see black guns of death! Or tie it to a MG, not knowing the difference. Thats why I have been compiling excerpts from Miller vs US, Statements from Self Defense experts about the legitamate use of SBRs in a self defense roll. Even have some Special Forces opinions on what is the best and safest weapon is a home self defence situation. I plan to assemble a Binder of info, pictures, charts and statutes from other states that have changed their SBR legislation. If a Senator or Rep asks a question the answer has to be ready. It's not easy to get meetings, you don't want to say, can I get back to you on that. I found an interesting write up on the miller vs us suprememe court case. reguarding how the length of firearm was debated, reached, and how it fits in now.

    I also would like to talk to my relative that was a member of the senate and current lobbyist, and board member of seattle city club. He knows all the people in Olympia. And being a Ret USMC Col. He is pro gun. He might know a good way or who to approach with this. He is actually good friends with Christine G and might know her stance.

    I didn't realize you had been working on the suppressor issue for years.. I came on board late with the suppressor issue and wasn't a part of the plan of attack. Just kind of jumped in and did what I thought needed to be done. I have no idea what you've got planned. I can wait to see how things progress and if it needs a push, help like this session. I'm willing to let you go at this however you want just let me know.

    Ceasefire Wa has already made a public statement expressing disapointment with the legislature this session. Saying they wasted time working on suppressors when there was bigger issues like Assault weapons. Makes me wonder what they are planning, will there be a battle of two sides of the issue next session. Will we be fighting for SBRs while they fight to disallow AR -AK style weapons all together? If so the need to be prepared is even more important.
  12. 8ball

    8ball Quit talkin' and start chalking! Bronze Supporter

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    Randy, great to see you working on this new issue. I agree with what you've posted above.

    I think there may be another angle though, even with one of the pro-2A judges gone from the WA Supreme Court.

    It's simple - was the 1994 SBS/SBR restriction kosher under the WA State Constitution?

    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.


    My angle is that the 1994 bill was simply not constitutional on its face. Of course, that is a layperson reading it, and I know the law is complex. Can anyone cite the WA state case law on this? If you look at State v Sieyes, they dodged the question because MacDonald wasn't settled, but a new case such as this could directly challenge it.

    Would SAF be up to filing it? As a state challenge, it probably wouldn't take long to get to the WA Supreme Court.

    Does anyone have a link to the 1994 bill?
  13. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    I have a link at home, it took a while to find it and I had to sign up to get a user name and password to search the archives. But you can do the same at http://access.wa.com . I am sure that the law is not constitutional, but ignoring the constitution when convenient is nothing new in the USA. We could try to hire a lawyer or ask someone to file on our behalf, but I do not know much about it.

    Ranb
  14. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    I was chomping at the bit to start on SBS/SBR as soon as bill 1016 passed the House, but I heard a rumor that Kline might stomp on the silencer bill if he thought it would lead to easing restrictions on SBS/SBR. So I clammed up and asked others to do the same. :) I do need to take it easy for a while, but it is more of a mental thing than actually writing and meeting people. Worrying about the bill took more of a toll than actually doing something.

    Something to do now would be to write to your local sheriff and county prosecutor requesting info on SBS/SBR crime. It is also a good time to contact your legislature and request a date for a personal meeting sometime after the session ends to discuss a bill to be introduced in the 2012 session. Start early so that they know your name. Most of the legislators have jobs outside of Olympia and seem like regular people, get to know them. Bring a friend to the meeting. Write a real letter to establish contact, and then follow up with e-mail.

    Here is a sample letter for asking for info from a sheriff or prosecutor. The names and addresses you will need are on your county’s homepage.


    There are a variety of responces you might get. They might request payment of a fee to search the records, simply tell you that there is no SBS/SBR crime in the county by records search or the polling the senior members of the force or supply a list of case numbers. Five counties never responded at all to my request for silencer crime data even though they are require to by law. However the law does not require them to supply the data, just respond to the request within five days.

    RCW 42.56.520: Prompt responses required.

    Ranb
  15. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Member

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  16. Ranb

    Ranb Active Member

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    Here are the sponsors of the bill (2319) that banned SBS/SBR.

    Representatives Appelwick, Leonard, Johanson, Valle, Wang, Wineberry, Scott, Karahalios, Caver, Kessler, Basich, Wolfe, J. Kohl, Veloria, Quall, Holm, Jones, Shin, King, Patterson, Eide, Dellwo, L. Johnson, Springer, Pruitt, Ogden, H. Myers and Anderson.

    Eide in the list is Senator Eide today. Springer is the only other Representative still serving.

    Ranb
  17. LWYM425

    LWYM425 Member

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    I'll get something out to Sheriff Lovick today
  18. SVT

    SVT Member

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    8ball took my thunder on the WA Constitutionality of the current law. Our Constitution is even more pro-gun rights then the federal. We should try to mirror the federal gun laws with similar verbiage as the the suppressor law with NFA firearms being registered and in compliance with Federal law. It's going to be a much tougher sell since there really isn't a "safety" angle to it. Although they would be hard pressed to provide evidence of legally registered NFA being used in crimes, even in our state when SBR's and MG's were legal.

    If we go with the angle of the constitution, then we can lump MG's in. If we go with just SBS & SBR's then it will be an extremely uphill battle to ever get MG's passed.
  19. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Member

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    I don't see it being a good idea to lump in MG right now. I think there is a definate safety point to this. SBR, SBS is the best, perfered weapon of choice for personal defense experts. People that are not hobby shooters, and only use for home defense are much more likely to score good hits with a SBR, SBS than a handgun. Adding MG with no doubt get WA Ceasefire riled up! I think the suppressor bill kind of floated under alot of anti gun peoples radars this session. We can only hope for the same next session. We don't have the advantage of it already being legal to own them in washington either. HB1016 was a fix of an oversight missed before. If suppressors where illegal to own in WA, it probably wouldn't have sailed through so fast.

    Kline was the guy that pushed the original bill through. Roach was actually against it. I found a article and video that interviewed several senators pro and against. When I get caught up on work maybe I can start working on a presentation or make a site to put all of our info in one place.
  20. SVT

    SVT Member

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    Thanks for response SeattleWings, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Using NFA for defensive purposes really isn't a good way to sell it. If we can go with "beefing" up our laws to be in compliance with the State constitution (i.e. mirror Federal laws) we can help ensure that our state (which has a tendency to lean to the left) doesn't do something stupid like try to limit magazine size, gun features, calibers etc in the future. This would deflect or downplay the MG/SBS/SBR aspect of the bill (which we could also argue that we never had any issues in this state when they were legal, and they are legal in most states).