Should Owner’s / Parent’s be held accountable when children are killed?

[Riot]

Safes are a good thing, requiring safes is a bad one.

Best quote of this thread, yet.

 

[Misterbill]

I just sent in this letter to the Editor:

Last week <broken link removed> claiming "Gun Safety Advocates" were lobbying for more gun laws in Washington in reaction to a series if three child-involved accidental shootings.

Let me correct you for the record:

Senator Adam Kline, D-Seattle, is NOT a gun-safety advocate. He is an anti-gun advocate. The "Legal Community Against Violence" is not a gun safety organization, they are an anti-gun organization.

Common sense would have prevented every one of the recent tragedies. In one case, the mere presence of a firearm in the home of a convicted felon, was already a much more serious crime than the one being proposed by Sen. Kline. If the fact that she was committing a serious felony punishable by up to 15 years in federal prison didn't keep one parent from keeping an unsecured, loaded gun around her son, what makes Sen. Kline think an additional gross misdemeanor would have made a difference?

Additionally, just because there isn't a special proviso in law singling out gun owners for prosecution for negligence, doesn't mean no law exists. Reckless Endangerment has been on the books for a long time and any responsible gun owner would tell you that leaving a loaded handgun unattended and unsecured in car with very young children in it is reckless and irresponsible indeed. -And this on the part of a police officer, who according to the ant-gun activists, are supposedly trained better than any civilian ever could be and thus should be the only ones allowed to have guns.

I lived for eight years in a state with "safe storage" laws. The effect is not more safety. As a matter of fact, Massachusetts has MORE firearms accidents involving young children than Washington by rather a large margin, even though it's a crime in that state to leave ANY gun, even unloaded, unlocked at any time it's not on your person, whether or not you have kids.

Safe storage laws don't actually make anyone safer. The kinds of people who will follow them diligently are the people who already follow proper gun safety practices.
Nationally, your child is more than 20 times as likely to die from accidental poisoning than they are from a gun accident. Where does Senator Kline stand on making it a law that household cleansers and aspirin be under lock and key? Are we going to have mandatory home inspections for all gun owners now? Why pass a law if you don't intend to enforce it?

You can't mandate common sense or good parenting or lack of stupidity by passing a feel-good law. What safe storage laws are is a reaction by gun control advocates seeking the illusion of safety, while not ACTUALLY making anyone safer and singling out a constitutionally protected right for special legal intervention.

If you have children, your most important gun-safety action is to educate them on gun safety. -Even if you don't own a gun, your child should at a very young age, know and follow the NRA's Eddie Eagle program rules: STOP! Don't Touch! Leave the Area! Get an Adult! Even a four-year-old can grasp these things easily.

If you have guns in your home, they need to be secured from ANY unauthorized use, not just from kids. Your children will be safer if you both secure your guns AND make a point to educate them about safe gun handling. Teach any child old enough to grasp them the Three Rules of gun safety:

1. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction -A direction that if the gun were fired, no one would be hurt.
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire the gun.
3. Always keep guns unloaded until ready to use.

Allow your child to see and handle your unloaded firearms with your close supervision. Take all the mystery away from the gun. -Forbidden fruit is the most tempting! Make sure they know they can see or handle the gun any time, if they just ask and wait for you to help them.

Teaching very young children the Eddie Eagle rules, and all children old enough to understand them, the Three Rules, would do infinitely more to keep kids safe than a law that can only be enforced AFTER a tragedy and singles out one of the least likely ways for your kid to be hurt for special prosecution.

Senator Kline would be a lot more convincing in his hand-wringing if he was advocating basic gun safety be taught in the schools. As a firearms trainer, I'd be happy to volunteer some time.

 

[Sabertooth]

If you have guns in your house and you have to lock them up because you have kids that won't leave them alone, get ride of the kids. If your friends with kids are visiting and there kids won't leave your guns alone, get rid of your friends. No problem. Calling someone irresponseble or neglegent because they do not lock up there guns is brain washing bs.

 

[Riot]

If you have guns in your house and you have to lock them up because you have kids that won't leave them alone, get ride of the kids. If your friends with kids are visiting and there kids won't leave your guns alone, get rid of your friends. No problem. Calling someone irresponseble or neglegent because they do not lock up there guns is brain washing bs.

So you know what your kids and their friends do when you're not there? Calling people that lock up their firearms "brainwashed" is an ignorant statement at best.

Firearm education is a constant thing...this isn't something you can just run up to a kid and say "never touch one of these". They have to be educated, brought to a range, shown why they shouldn't touch them and then have read back to you why they shouldn't touch the gun without your permission. Kids learn differently, as well. Sometimes the way they need to know that they shouldn't touch the stove is when they touch it when it is hot. This obviously can't happen with guns. Just telling your child to never touch the gun or show their friends may work today, but not a few weeks from now.

 

[Sabertooth]

What are doing leaving your kids home alone with out an adult with them?? That's irresponseble. Agreed, education is the key thing starting at a young age, and repeated education until the kids leave home. Let the kids shot the guns. Recoil is a good education tool. Take the kids out in the woods let them shot a chunck of firewood then split the wood and show them what the bullet does. Let them learn by doing and seeing. They may not understand what you say but they do understand physical stuff. They remember pictures. Get it.

 

[hm1ing]

A person with intent will find a way to accomplish their goal and to hold someone else responsible for another persons actions, or for inadvertantly making access to anything that could be used as a weapon; is rediculous.''

This is the kind of feedback that I was hoping to see...However, its more about "securing" vs " Gun Control" or other type of Control; I agree Where there's a will, there's a way!
At what level is "Secured"? I'm not comparing to the "Class 3" Securing level, but it is something to consider... After all, How far do we really go to be a "Responsible Gun owner"?

Thank you to all for your input.

 

[hermannr]

This is the kind of feedback that I was hoping to see...However, its more about "securing" vs " Gun Control" or other type of Control; I agree Where there's a will, there's a way!
At what level is "Secured"? I'm not comparing to the "Class 3" Securing level, but it is something to consider... After all, How far do we really go to be a "Responsible Gun owner"?

Thank you to all for your input.

And a Military "arm's room" has never been broken into either, or had any weapons come up missing. Remember, safes are rated in "minutes". The number of minutes a fire will take to damage the contents, and the number of minutes it will take a pro to break into it.

 

[hm1ing]

And a Military "arm's room" has never been broken into either, or had any weapons come up missing. Remember, safes are rated in "minutes". The number of minutes a fire will take to damage the contents, and the number of minutes it will take a pro to break into it.

Nicely put.... I would like to direct this back to "Kids gaining access to firearms in the home or of others if not 'Preventively secured or put away."

 

[hm1ing]

TTT for continued input

 

[Dave Workman]

Kitsap mom pleads guilty in connection with school shooting

Jamie Chaffin, mother of the 9-year-old boy who took a gun to a Bremerton-area elementary school in February and it discharged in his backpack, wounding another student, took a guilty plea Tuesday on two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm and will spend time in jail.

<broken link removed>

 

[idRATHERbeOUTDOORS]

"Dangerous Things" by Nutnfancy - YouTube Nutnfancy has a pretty good video discussing this topic.....
Keep in mind this is just a point of view

 

[Chee-to]

We all know motor vehicles can be deadly weapons............How many lock up their keys ? What if your child's buddy comes over, steals your keys that you "carelessly" left laying on top of the fridge, go's on a joy ride, and kills the paper boy?

 

[Dave Workman]

Breaking: Marysville officer charged in daughter’s fatal shooting

Second-degree manslaughter charges have been filed against a Marysville police officer in the March accidental shooting death of his 7-year-old daughter in Stanwood.

<broken link removed>

 

[Dave Workman]

Can Marysville officer get fair trial in daughter’s death? Prosecutor says ‘Yes’

Now that the long-awaited charge of second-degree manslaughter has been filed against Marysville Police Officer Derek Carlile in the tragic shooting death of his daughter in March, one question needs an immediate answer.
Can Carlile get a fair trial?

<broken link removed>

 

[Darknight]

No! My dad always kept his firearms in the same place, his closet in a gun rack not locked with the ammo being stored in the garage not locked. However, he kept his .357 loaded in the night stand. As a young kid I was taught to respect and safely handle firearms, so I have always done the same with my children. My kids have had many sleep-overs in years past and they always knew where the firearms were and the ammo and that they were not allowed to go near them without an adult and never with their friends over. No one has mentioned the obvious, so I will; how about the responsibility falls on the parent of the children coming over to first check with the parents of the other household about potential firearms. I actually had a parent ask me one time if I had weapons in the house and if they would be or could they be stored safely out of reach while their kid was over. It was nice to hear. Kids are curios, so take away the curiosity and teach them and let them handle firearms safely in your presence. Even if you don't like or believe in guns, the responsible thing to do is send your kids to a gun safety class. They will eventually be going over to other peoples houses to play that may have them. JMHO.

 

[Riot]

No! My dad always kept his firearms in the same place, his closet in a gun rack not locked with the ammo being stored in the garage not locked. However, he kept his .357 loaded in the night stand. As a young kid I was taught to respect and safely handle firearms, so I have always done the same with my children. My kids have had many sleep-overs in years past and they always knew where the firearms were and the ammo and that they were not allowed to go near them without an adult and never with their friends over. No one has mentioned the obvious, so I will; how about the responsibility falls on the parent of the children coming over to first check with the parents of the other household about potential firearms. I actually had a parent ask me one time if I had weapons in the house and if they would be or could they be stored safely out of reach while their kid was over. It was nice to hear. Kids are curios, so take away the curiosity and teach them and let them handle firearms safely in your presence. Even if you don't like or believe in guns, the responsible thing to do is send your kids to a gun safety class. They will eventually be going over to other peoples houses to play that may have them. JMHO.

Soooo you don't think the parents should be held accountable or you do think they should be held accountable?

 

[hermannr]

No! My dad always kept his firearms in the same place, his closet in a gun rack not locked with the ammo being stored in the garage not locked. However, he kept his .357 loaded in the night stand. As a young kid I was taught to respect and safely handle firearms, so I have always done the same with my children. My kids have had many sleep-overs in years past and they always knew where the firearms were and the ammo and that they were not allowed to go near them without an adult and never with their friends over. No one has mentioned the obvious, so I will; how about the responsibility falls on the parent of the children coming over to first check with the parents of the other household about potential firearms. I actually had a parent ask me one time if I had weapons in the house and if they would be or could they be stored safely out of reach while their kid was over. It was nice to hear. Kids are curios, so take away the curiosity and teach them and let them handle firearms safely in your presence. Even if you don't like or believe in guns, the responsible thing to do is send your kids to a gun safety class. They will eventually be going over to other peoples houses to play that may have them. JMHO.

One of our granddaughters was over her visiting and told me that some of her friends wanted to "look at" her parents weapons, and she told them to go home...She said to me "Opa, why would they want to do that...I would never be able to go shooting with mom and dad again"

 

[hermannr]

Soooo you don't think the parents should be held accountable or you do think they should be held accountable?

Held accountable by society, no. God has already held them accountable.

Procecuting and persecuting these people is has no societal purpose. Consider the waco's that shoot up a school. (pick one, any one) because the school bans weapons they are not responsible? You cannot blame someone else, for another persons actions...even if they are only 3. Just like you cannot blame the gun for someone misusing it.

My idea of when the parent is neglegent is when they put a loaded gun in the small child's hand and say, here play with this....with no instruction or supervision. That I could go along with being neglegent.

If these parents were neglegent in anything it was training and discipline...not how they stored their gun.

 

[Darknight]

Soooo you don't think the parents should be held accountable or you do think they should be held accountable?

I believe the very first word in my original post answered your question; NO! I do not think parents should be held accountable.

 

[Darknight]

Held accountable by society, no. God has already held them accountable.

Procecuting and persecuting these people is has no societal purpose. Consider the waco's that shoot up a school. (pick one, any one) because the school bans weapons they are not responsible? You cannot blame someone else, for another persons actions...even if they are only 3. Just like you cannot blame the gun for someone misusing it.

My idea of when the parent is neglegent is when they put a loaded gun in the small child's hand and say, here play with this....with no instruction or supervision. That I could go along with being neglegent.

If these parents were neglegent in anything it was training and discipline...not how they stored their gun.

For once I would have to agree with you. Everything you said is right on the money.