Officers Kill Veteran

[Mosinman]

rsmccsman says "You jump to a lot of conclusions saying this Joe went bad. Metro issued him a CHL and 7 blue cards. (Clark County Nevada requires handguns to be registered and you have to carry proof it's called a blue card.) Why would they issue a CHL and have a guy with top secret clearance pass numerous background checks if he was a good guy who went bad? It doesn't make sense to me."

It really doesn't matter what he did in the past, nor what security clearance he had. What is important is what he did that day. Let me give you some examples of that idea not holding any water, regarding him having a CHL and security clearance.

• Chief Dave Brame Tacoma Police Dept murdered his wife after having the public trust for many years. Went through a psychological testing before being given the job.
• The Muslim Doctor in the U.S. Army that went on a shooting rampage and killed a lot of people on the Army Fort. He was a certified doctor and a Officer.

Don't you think these people probably went through some extensive tests and had the public or medical community trust before they did what they did? They still made some bad choices and WENT BAD.

One other point you brought up that was not based in fact. The security equipment was not tampered with, nor was it taken into evidence. The security system camera in that area was not working. There was no conspiracy and this was part of the Costco managers testimony (maybe Costco is in on it too). It is a DVD burning system and the system is still there working. DVDs were burnt for the time period during this incident occurred including the suspects actions in other parts of the store before the shooting.

Your very flowery long missive does not cover one important point that is very germane to the subject that is listed in a link on this thread. The Coroner's jury found the officer innocent of wrong doing after a long drawn out review of ALL the facts. Maybe it ended up that way because the black helicopter people fixed the jury with special mob connections :>)

If you really want to understand when an Officer can and can not shoot please review the U.S. Supreme court case called Graham vs O'Connor. This is a definitive directive from the high court of the land regarding this issue.

One last thing. May I suggest you become familiar with the facts in a case before you start slinging mud at people who post here and before you judge their character enough to determine whether they should join the Police force or not. Also whether they can pass a Psych test. Maybe take the log out of your eye before talking about the speck in someone elses eye.....maybe?

 

[rsmccsman]

Mosinman your logic appears to me to be as follows.

The Police shoot bad guys.
The Police do not shoot good guys.
The police shot this man.
Therefore this man is a bad guy.

This would be logical if one more fact was true.
The police don’t ever make mistakes.

However consider this logic

All humans make are capable of making mistakes
The police are human
Therefore the police are capable of making mistakes

You say.

“It really doesn’t matter what he did in the past, nor what security clearance he had. What is important is what he did that day. Let me give you some examples of that idea not holding any water, regarding him having a CHL and security clearance.

• Chief Dave Brame Tacoma Police Dept murdered his wife after having the public trust for many years. Went through a psychological testing before being given the job.
• The Muslim Doctor in the U.S. Army that went on a shooting rampage and killed a lot of people on the Army Fort. He was a certified doctor and a Officer.

Don’t you think these people probably went through some extensive tests and had the public or medical community trust before they did what they did? They still made some bad choices and WENT BAD.”

You do make a point that what mattered was what everyone did on that day. However by your own argument, could we not as easily assume that it was the police who “went bad” instead of the Veteran who was shot? No one has proven that he threatened anyone or brandished any weapons before he was shot. (no video remember) The police were the only ones involved that we know with 100 % certainty caused anyone serious bodily injury or death on that day.

You say.

"One other point you brought up that was not based in fact. The security equipment was not tampered with, nor was it taken into evidence. The security system camera in that area was not working. There was no conspiracy and this was part of the Costco managers testimony (maybe Costco is in on it too). It is a DVD burning system and the system is still there working. DVDs were burnt for the time period during this incident occurred including the suspects actions in other parts of the store before the shooting. "

If the DVDs were burnt, where are they and why can’t the family get access to them? (Awfully convenient when the police have their words against a dead man who can’t speak.) I may be wrong about this if so show me the videos to exonerate the police.

You also say

"Your very flowery long missive does not cover one important point that is very germane to the subject that is listed in a link on this thread. The Coroner’s jury found the officer innocent of wrong doing after a long drawn out review of ALL the facts. Maybe it ended up that way because the black helicopter people fixed the jury with special mob connections :>)"

I am not a black helicopter guy myself. But I have ridden in the LVMPD police helicopter. **** of a ride we even buzzed my house. E ticket all the way. But back to your point. I previously pointed out that not one Coroner’s inquest in Vegas has ever found an officer at fault in a shooting, at least not that I am aware of. If I am wrong on that point I will gladly eat humble pie. To the locals (I was born and raised in Vegas lived there 30 + years went to the police academy there.) the process is considered somewhat of a rubber stamp of police shootings. Much more police friendly than what Portland does with its officers second guessing them. Anyway not all the witnesses get to testify, not all the evidence is seen or heard. It is a one sided process set up by the DA. It is not really an independent unbiased fact finding investigation.

You also suggest..

"May I suggest you become familiar with the facts in a case before you start slinging mud at people who post here and before you judge their character enough to determine whether they should join the Police force or not. Maybe take the log out of your eye before talking about the speck in mine…..maybe? "

I’m not sure what “log” you are referring to in my eye as I am not the one cheering the death of a veteran who served his country honorably with words like, “I would have lit his *** up too.” I think many on here were offended by that remark. I am the one advocating for a little more restraint in the use of force, so that legally armed law abiding citizens aren’t gunned down by the police at the first sign of a gun showing if we "print" our CHL. As a NWFA member I would hope you could appreciate that. Nothing can bring this man back from the dead. It is tragic. If you don’t think agree that it is, then it is my humble opinion that you do not belong in law enforcement. Without speaking for them I would guess that all of the Law Enforcement administrators I know would agree with me. You can agree or disagree that I am being too hard on the Police, I am trying to be fair to them. Some of my best friends are cops. But you dehumanized this dead man and label him as bad. That is the kind of us them attitude that alienates the police from the public they serve. You did not know him or anything about him. Yet you judge him, while at the same time having a problem with me forming an opinion about you that was based entirely upon your insensitive remarks. I don’t think I am the hypocrite here. I think this is a case of you can dish it out but not take it.

 

[Wheeler44]

The take away message from this incident and this thread is this; We are all just one bad day from ending up like the deceased in this thread. One day of things not going right and being in a hurry or a bad mood..Maybe from a simple disagreement....And then the police are called. If your gun shows, or even something that vaguely resembles a gun or a knife or a club, and you don't get it on the ground fast enough. Maybe you just want to explain that all you have in your hand is a cell phone..and it's game over...No reset....

The wood carver in Seattle where we do have a video had seven seconds. We don't know when he first heard the officer. We know that he had no more than seven seconds. We also know that the knife was closed when he was shot. It was found closed and was a lock blade.

We know that your life can end in seven seconds..

I don't care if you ALWAYS support an officers right to go home hole free or not.....Each and every one of us is just seven seconds from dead on a bad day....

Now how about that patience thing....I guess none of us will know until that day when we wish we had eight seconds...one second could make a difference..


I realize that a second is all it takes for a 60 year old vet in a wheelchair to travel 21 feet and go ninja with a pocket knife.

I realize that the Chief in Rainier yesterday could have used another second..

But folks shouldn't have to live in fear that if they print, or have a pocket knife that they are seven seconds from death.

YMMV

W44

 

[wolfwistle]

I guess all we can do is keep this good mans loving family in are thoughts and prayers ,the one that stood beside him while he defended our country and payed taxes to the gang that murdered him.

 

[Mosinman]

I have never flown in a LVMPD helicopter nor trained with them, but I found these facts reported by someone who was at the Corners inquest:

Officer said he shot Scott after man pulled gun from waistband - News - ReviewJournal.com

PS: You may not want to believe the independent reporters story because I heard from a source in Hillsboro, Oregon that he may have Mafia connections. You know....those people from Las Vegas and the mafia......

 

[rsmccsman]

I have never flown in a LVMPD helicopter nor trained with them, but I found these facts reported by someone who was at the Corners inquest:

Officer said he shot Scott after man pulled gun from waistband - News - ReviewJournal.com

PS: You may not want to believe the independent reporters story because I heard from a source in Hillsboro, Oregon that he may have Mafia connections. You know....those people from Las Vegas and the mafia......

Pay attention I didn't say LVMPD is mafia, I said the former mayor was the mobs attorney. LVMPD is more good ol boy. Takes care of their own. Kind of an unspoken understanding. The Review Journal has also reported about aliens at area 51. but I digress. The article you quote has some interesting information.

"Police recovered Scott's .45-caliber handgun, in its holster, from the ground near where he fell.

The witness was the second Costco worker to testify. On Wednesday, Colleen Kullberg said she was evacuating from the store when she saw Scott aim his gun at a police officer."

So the gun was found by police still in its holster, but the Costco employee testified he was pointing it at the officer. (Unanswered question to me at least, was it still in the holster when he pointed it at the officer?) Did that witness answer that question? If not that is a big discrepancy. If the witness says the gun was "out of the holster" pointed at the police, but the gun was found in the holster then the witness is lying. But there is no cross examination of witnesses at the coroner's inquest so we don't know the answer to that question.

"Ross Goodman, a Scott family lawyer, later said the video gap raises the "specter of suspicion."

"I don't think the general public is going to buy for one minute that Costco's video system was down for five days and they did nothing about it," he said.

Goodman also disputed testimony by Mosher, saying Scott was complying with conflicting commands from the officers. He also said Lierley was "completely wrong about his observations about Erik Scott," saying he has witnesses who described an "amicable" interaction with store employees.

"There's much ado about nothing," he said"

So even your news source says there were conflicting accounts.
The family attorney makes the same point I did about conflicting commands from the police. Don't move show, me your hands, get on the ground. Whats the poor guy to do?

"Mosher, who faced an inquest in 2006 after he shot and killed a home-invasion suspect. A jury found his actions justified."

Also interesting in this article is that this is not the first time this particular officer has shot and killed someone. Most police never do it even one time in their career, how many do it twice? No, It doesn't prove anything, but it is a red flag to me.

Here is a link to the families response to this inquest. They were also there attending the coroner's inquest reporting. Are they unbiased no, but they still make some valid points critical of the coroner's jury process.

<broken link removed>

Oh yes and I stand corrected on one point, regarding the process there has been one case when an officer has been criminally liable in a coroners inquest.

"In 34 years and at least 190 inquests, only one officer has been found criminally liable for his actions, according to the Las Vegas Review Journal. The possibility of a "criminal" judgment being leveled against a Metro officer who has killed a citizen is so remote that, for the Trevon Cole inquest, the presiding officer didn't bother to inform the jury of criteria that would enable a "criminal" finding!"

So there is still about a half a percent chance of being found in the wrong if you are a Metro officer in a shooting. Wish I could get those odds at the casinos in Vegas, I would bet it all. Bottom line the Coroner's jury is still pretty much a one sided slam dunk rubber stamp.

Other points the family makes about "independent reporters" who in fact are not independent but work for the Review Journal, which is your source.

"It's also important to understand that Erik's simply a casualty of newspaper and TV economics. Consider the stakes of this 2010 political battlefield: Sheriff Gillespie takes care of business for the casinos. As a result, the casino owners have backed his reelection bid with tons of money. Kent Oram is Sheriff Gillespie's campaign manager. Oram also is a long-time heavy-hitter in the advertising business, a principal of OIZ Advertising.
Local newspapers like the Las Vegas Review-Journal live or die on advertising revenue. Without it, they go broke. So, when political kingmaker Kent Oram rolls in and "suggests" a publisher/owner run a negative story about Erik Scott, or he'll make sure thousands of dollars in advertising are pulled, RJ managers cave. Of course, Oram pitches the "suggestion" as a plea for balance, bleating that his candidate, Sheriff Gillespie, feels there's too much positive stuff about Erik Scott in the local news. But the real message is received by the RJ, loud and clear.
Review-Journal reporters Lawrence Mower and Antonio Planas, who wrote the September 10th story entitled, "Dark Details Come to Light in Costco Shooting," were ordered to write a negative story about Erik, using Metro-leaked information. They did—probably holding their noses the whole time—or risk losing their jobs. Savvy reporters know the Golden Rule of publishing: Those who have the gold make the rules. Kent Oram controls a sizable chunk of the Las Vegas-area advertising gold. Consequently, I'm inclined to cut Mower and Planas some slack. Like Erik Scott, they're just pawns in this Old Las Vegas political power play."

...and that is pretty much sums up how things actually work in Vegas. Can't say that I miss it. Reporters do not get to write what they want. They write what they are told. I wouldn't trust details of a news story just because it is in the Review Journal.

Here is another personal experience I would share. It colors my perception but I share it in the interest of full disclosure.

A childhood friend of my brother, who I also knew was shot and killed by Metro about 25 years ago. Now this kid was no angel, he stole a Corvette from the Hilton Hotel valet parking and ended up going on a high speed chase and got stuck down a dead end alley. He was shot in the face at 7 yards with a shotgun, blew his face off, I went to his funeral. He had his hands in the air according to the only other witness (the guy who was in the stolen car with him), It was ruled justified (Coroner's inquest) because the officer claimed he thought he had something in his hand. The only thing they found on him was a comb in his back pocket. He was unarmed. Did he deserve to die? No probably not. Did his stupid reckless behavior get him killed? Yes it did. Metro settled with the family in a civil suit big $$$.

I actually give that officer the benefit of the doubt as it was dark, he was alone against 2 suspects and it was the end of a high speed felony car chase of a stolen vehicle, of which the offender was in fact indisputably guilty. He was probably scared. However, if he had waited a second longer maybe the guy wouldn't be dead.

Now I realize that you would have "capped his *** too." But I think human life is sacred and although I have no problem with most police shootings or the use of deadly force when justified for self defense. The fact still remains that just because it is the police doing it, doesn't make it right. A badge is a sacred trust, not a license to kill.

Remember there are still two sides to this story, and without video to prove either sides case, we could just go on and on like this. But I grow weary.

 

[Mosinman]

I guess as they would say in my Army days....."about face."

 

[Father of four]

I guess all we can do is keep this good mans loving family in are thoughts and prayers ,the one that stood beside him while he defended our country and payed taxes to the gang that murdered him.

Maybe send some financial support? People always seem to be ready to send their money to the falling officers families. Why not send some help to the falling citizens families? If you believe a citizen may have been unrighteously (Not just unlawfully) shoot and killed by the cops, why not send that family some help. The family of a citizens deserves some help just like the family of a cop.

 

[Father of four]

The take away message from this incident and this thread is this; We are all just one bad day from ending up like the deceased in this thread. One day of things not going right and being in a hurry or a bad mood..Maybe from a simple disagreement....And then the police are called. If your gun shows, or even something that vaguely resembles a gun or a knife or a club, and you don't get it on the ground fast enough. Maybe you just want to explain that all you have in your hand is a cell phone..and it's game over...No reset....

The wood carver in Seattle where we do have a video had seven seconds. We don't know when he first heard the officer. We know that he had no more than seven seconds. We also know that the knife was closed when he was shot. It was found closed and was a lock blade.

We know that your life can end in seven seconds..

I don't care if you ALWAYS support an officers right to go home hole free or not.....Each and every one of us is just seven seconds from dead on a bad day....

Now how about that patience thing....I guess none of us will know until that day when we wish we had eight seconds...one second could make a difference..


I realize that a second is all it takes for a 60 year old vet in a wheelchair to travel 21 feet and go ninja with a pocket knife.

I realize that the Chief in Rainier yesterday could have used another second..

But folks shouldn't have to live in fear that if they print, or have a pocket knife that they are seven seconds from death.

YMMV

W44

We citizens have a right to go home! We citizens have a right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness! We shouldn't be made to be so weary or afraid around an officer of OUR LAW of him or her killing us for no good reason!

More and more BS and we just let them go and do it again and again and again and again and again..... Just because the police department said it was OK (It was police procedure) do we just continue to believe it was alright? Come on people! There is always an HUGE outcry if some bad guy kills a officer. What about a seemingly Good Citizen being killed by them?

EVERYONE needs to be accountable!!!!

 

[Father of four]

I never said he was a medical examiner. But as a former police officer who's been involved in shootings, he has a certain amount of experience seeing the reaction of the human body when its shot.

There should not be a double standard. Police shootings should be held to standards as well. But it seems like there's enough reasonable doubt either way in the shoot that a criminal trial would have trouble of finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps in a civil suit, the guys father can win a judgement, but there doesn't seem to be enough evidence that they did or did not so something wrong.

So what do we do? Fire them without enough firm evidence that it was a bad shoot? If a civilian was convicted of a shoot that wasn't a clear cut bad shoot, wouldn't we also be crying foul. I've been held at gunpoint by an abuse of police power. And I don't blanket support the police. But I do support giving them the same benefit of the doubt.

Mountainbear, what can we do? Who is gonna hold them accountable if they do something wrong? Are they trustworthy enough to do it themselves? Do you trust them to govern themselves? I don't! I bet most of us citizens don't. This isn't Police bashing, but something needs to be done. They are getting more and more out of control and we are seemingly just being killed for no reasons. Well in our eyes no justifiable reason. We need officers but not like this!

 

[mjbskwim]

I love all the speculation on this thread and this entire forum.

Nobody on here can say what was going on in this guys head.Maybe he killed some people in war and couldn't deal with it
Maybe the cops wanted to shoot someone?

Maybe we need to wear our foil hats into costco?

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone on this forum that did a psych exam on the veteran.
Or anyone that was there,in the store.

So really y'all is a doin' what come natural and speculaten' to say bad bubblegum about someone,and somethin' you don't know about

 

[Father of four]

I love all the speculation on this thread and this entire forum.

Nobody on here can say what was going on in this guys head.Maybe he killed some people in war and couldn't deal with it
Maybe the cops wanted to shoot someone?

Maybe we need to wear our foil hats into costco?

I haven't seen any evidence of anyone on this forum that did a psych exam on the veteran.
Or anyone that was there,in the store.

So really y'all is a doin' what come natural and speculaten' to say bad bubblegum about someone,and somethin' you don't know about

How are we to know? You think they will tell us the truth or cover it up if possible?

 

[mjbskwim]

How are we to know? You think they will tell us the truth or cover it up if possible?

Like I say,wear the tin hat.

I think all the policia and government people,secretly want to kill us all

Shhh,don't tell anyone

 

[Mosinman]

Carrying concealed, being on drugs and screwing with the cops= the possibility of being shot. Then having gun owners defend the crook because your friends said you were a OK. Only in America.

This is food for the anti gunners to eat, digest and use against normal gun owners. Almost makes me want to have a ban on concealed carry.

 

[Father of four]

Wanna be serious? What if this happens to one of your loved ones? Would you then? What if your loved one was killed within the lines of proper police procedure? What if you knew he/she was wrongfully killed. Would you play around like this was just something to play around with?

 

[Father of four]

So I guess we should just keep on believing what we are told with no proof. Yep the officers are always right and we citizens should expect our lives to end if we don't' listen and do what they say for us to do immediately without hesitation. OK i get it.

 

[Father of four]

Here I guess is another dummy like me.

Pajamas Media » Gunned Down in Vegas: What Really Happened to Erik Scott?

201. David

"Having been a Police Officer in a large city for thirty years and now retired and living in Las Vegas along with being pro police, I’ve seen numerous police shootings in this city and question the veracity of several. I frequent this Costco and fortunately was not there at the time of the shooting. I have been in three shooting altercations in my thirty years as a Police Officer and can assure you that I never fired my weapon unless a weapon was fired at me or about to be fired at me with it in the offenders hand and pointed in my direction. Taking a human life is not something to be taken lightly. There are several mental phases that I went through after taking a life, none of which I would encourage anyone to experience. I watched the coroner’s inquest and listened closely to all the officers’ testimony. In my opinion, I found one officer to be credible. The witnesses that were on the scene gave conflicting statements to the shooting which is normal when many people are involved.
My personal belief is that these officers in Las Vegas are not getting the proper training in deadly force or are being protected by their department when their shootings aren’t justified which makes it easier to shoot again and not be concerned with the consequences that could follow.
Again, I was not there but did listen to all the testimony and believe this was a bad shoot.
Means could have been taken to handle this situation which could have saved a life instead of taking one."
October 15, 2010 - 6:16 am

 

[ridurall]

David, that is why I've been talking with our local Chief of Police about this case. I'll say this again We spend quite a bit of time while camping with the 4H horse club and he and my wife are Co Presidents because we never know when he might be called away during a rodeo or camp out to deal with a case. He is lots of fun to camp with as he has good stupid crook stories. The reason I brought this to his attention was to make sure that it didn't happen here. He has incorporated it into the training of the 911 operators and his officers. I just wanted to make sure that this type of incident didn't happen here. This is one Mell off a hess no matter what happened. All it would take is one yoyo with an ax to grind to get the operator all hyped up and scared and in turn pass that attitude on to the police. Our police chief has made a point in training both the operators and his officers to understand that the guys with concealed carry licenses are the good guys and much less likely to cause harm. He is a pleasure to spend time with setting around the camp fire.

Ron

 

[Mosinman]

We just had an interesting conversation at work about this thread after loading the brown trucks. An African American worker piped up and had an interesting conversation and observation about this thread. He said that his people have been accused in the past of sticking up for African Americans (like O.J.) even though they are guilty. He told me that after hearing about all these posts, he believes people who carried concealed can be accused of the same thing and stick up for their fellow CHL friends even though they are guilty as ****. That was an enlightening statement on his part and fits like a shoe here. Food for thought for all here and I believe he hit the nail right on the head here.

 

[MountainBear]

Mountainbear, what can we do? Who is gonna hold them accountable if they do something wrong? Are they trustworthy enough to do it themselves? Do you trust them to govern themselves? I don't! I bet most of us citizens don't. This isn't Police bashing, but something needs to be done. They are getting more and more out of control and we are seemingly just being killed for no reasons. Well in our eyes no justifiable reason. We need officers but not like this!

Problem is that there is no more proof that they did something wrong as there is that the suspect was in the wrong. I'm all for punishing officers when they are in the wrong, but you actually have to prove it. From what they've released about this shooting, there's too much conflicting information either way...