How big of a disadvantage do civilians have versus ex-military in a SHTF scenario?

[MisterD]

The problem is that nobody is defining "military veteran" in any useful way. There are a relatively few vets who were involved in fire fights. Only some vets actually used their survival training in the field. ~~ snip ~~ I learned to hike and navigate as a boy scout.

Later on, I played on a paintball team that eventually went professional. It may sound like silly child's play, but how else can a civilian train intensively in stealth, tactics, movement, fields of fire, teamwork, planning assaults and defenses, ambush, and concealment. And don't discount learning to function when the adrenaline rush hits. It's there, even if it's just a game.

After that I joined a medieval combat guild, fighting hand to hand in armor with real swords, daggers, and axes. The blunted edges didn't make them weigh any less, nor were the impacts any less painful.

[video]http://www.tournamentproductions.org/photos/video/clip6.mpg[/video]

These days I have a small farm and raise much of my own meat and produce. I am tight with my neighbors, and we cooperate and trade food and equipment back and forth. I have no doubt we'd be watching each other's backs in a tight situation. My wife is a first aid expert, and grew up in a cabin without running water or electricity. The kids are familiar, if not proficient with firearms.

Over the years I've acquired skills as an electrician, plumber, electronics tech, mechanic, blacksmith, meat cutter, and machinist.

I think we would do as well as anyone, given the same luck of the draw in a tight situation, and very little of that would depend on my military training.

You present many good points. It is hard to define what an average military person is and what they can do in a crisis. Likewise how many civilians have backgrounds that equate to what you are able to do? On that I would say that there are a few, but if we were to put a per capita number to it for those who actually have first-aid training, ability to hunt and have camping skills.. what would you guess the civilian figure would be.. maybe one hundred in every 1 Million compared to folks who served in the Military with the same skill sets.. maybe one thousand in 1 Million? Knowing that to break the monotony and provide a bit of fun training.. the Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM) has what they call adventure training programs such as cross-country skiing, mountain climbing, river crossing and other forms of survival training that units can partake in which normally would not be expected as a part of their normal day to day duties.. Meaning Fun training for those who are not Rangers or Special Forces. Even when I was in Germany in the late 70's the Combat Engineer unit I was assigned to would do things like repelling from fixed platforms and helicopters or going to Garnish for downhill and cross-country skiing, be dropped off in the forests during night time without being told where we were and have to find out way to where each of our meals would be located and then to our extraction point to make it home. Being dropped by helicopter into a dark dense forest in the dead of night can be very confusing when each person in the squad has a different map with a different instruction sheet and the first task was to figure out which map would be needed. If you made it to the correct first point, you would find your next location hidden in the box with your rations/supplies and so forth. Before I go into too many past memory.. let me finish with my point.

Knowing that other bases also conduct adventure training for the peace time soldiers, there are probably far more with survival ability that most might think.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

You present many good points. It is hard to define what an average military person is and what they can do in a crisis. Likewise how many civilians have backgrounds that equate to what you are able to do? On that I would say that there are a few, but if we were to put a per capita number to it for those who actually have first-aid training, ability to hunt and have camping skills.. what would you guess the civilian figure would be.. maybe one hundred in every 1 Million compared to folks who served in the Military with the same skill sets.. maybe one thousand in 1 Million? Knowing that to break the monotony and provide a bit of fun training.. the Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM) has what they call adventure training programs such as cross-country skiing, mountain climbing, river crossing and other forms of survival training that units can partake in which normally would not be expected as a part of their normal day to day duties.. Meaning Fun training for those who are not Rangers or Special Forces. Even when I was in Germany in the late 70's the Combat Engineer unit I was assigned to would do things like repelling from fixed platforms and helicopters or going to Garnish for downhill and cross-country skiing, be dropped off in the forests during night time without being told where we were and have to find out way to where each of our meals would be located and then to our extraction point to make it home. Being dropped by helicopter into a dark dense forest in the dead of night can be very confusing when each person in the squad has a different map with a different instruction sheet and the first task was to figure out which map would be needed. If you made it to the correct first point, you would find your next location hidden in the box with your rations/supplies and so forth. Before I go into too many past memory.. let me finish with my point.

Knowing that other bases also conduct adventure training for the peace time soldiers, there are probably far more with survival ability that most might think.

You're absolutely right. Military or not, there will be a small percentage of people who are prepared training/skill-wise, and an even smaller percentage who are equipped materially. My point was that "military" doesn't automatically mean more competent, better trained, better equipped, or more experienced.

 

[Blackrock]

If the Vet was combat arms and has some combat experience then yes, I would say they have an edge in a shooting situation( going from 0-100mph ready to conduct violent action). Most of my buddies, are armed, and keep their shooting skills up to date. Survival wise, it depends, did they go to Survival school, SERE or Ranger school. If they were just a run of the mill grunt, they wont have any real skills for gathering food, gardening, water purification etc. I have a background in S.A.R, attended a AF Survival school and spend a great deal of time in the outdoors. I come from a farming family so, food storage and animal husbandry are old hat to us. I think a Hutterite would survive better than most.

 

[slicediceputinrice]

civilians don't have access to tanks and air support so I'd say that is a losing disadvantage no matter WHAT, oh I forgot, every Rambo with his AR or WASR10 is going to repel columns of tanks and shoot predator drones out of the sky and live in the woods off squirrels until they single-handedly write a new constitution and set up a new form of government lol, like if the government and military are going to abide by some silly state statute anyways during SHTF, at least in that fantasy I'm riding a war elephant covered in spikes into battle and armed with a mini gun in each hand

 

[whiskeybill]

civilians don't have access to tanks and air support so I'd say that is a losing disadvantage no matter WHAT, oh I forgot, every Rambo with his AR or WASR10 is going to repel columns of tanks and shoot predator drones out of the sky and live in the woods off squirrels until they single-handedly write a new constitution and set up a new form of government lol, like if the government and military are going to abide by some silly state statute anyways during SHTF, at least in that fantasy I'm riding a war elephant covered in spikes into battle and armed with a mini gun in each hand

Watching too many movies??

 

[Triplebuckshot]

For some military it is only a "mindset" and a "willpower" that has been "discovered" while in the military. These are about the only things they have over civilians. And not even all civilians.

90% (just a guess) of the military gets no training outside of basic for things like survival, medicine beyond first aid and security (learning to be secure not recognize a cyber attack).

The best thing you have is the gray matter between your ears. Your willingness to do anything to survive and the compassion to rebuild.

You are prepping and that is important, you are probably lightyears ahead of most military folk.

Oh and before anyone jumps my shizz. 11B for 12 years. 5 of those years in a LRSD unit.

 

[RVTECH]

Later on, I played on a paintball team that eventually went professional. It may sound like silly child's play,

Not at all. I too got involved with PB in the 'early' days when everyone had the big single shot marking guns. None of my military or civilian training even came close to the near reality of trying to avoid being shot with a PB because it hurts and leaves a mark. I recall the 'Capture the Flag' PB games in the woods of Oklahoma and really becoming aware of my surroundings, my team and what was going on. I know people into PB these days but it doesn't seem to have what we had back in the 'day'.

 

[Decker]

Not at all. I too got involved with PB in the 'early' days when everyone had the big single shot marking guns. None of my military or civilian training even came close to the near reality of trying to avoid being shot with a PB because it hurts and leaves a mark. I recall the 'Capture the Flag' PB games in the woods of Oklahoma and really becoming aware of my surroundings, my team and what was going on. I know people into PB these days but it doesn't seem to have what we had back in the 'day'.

Absolutely agree. I used to play and ref. on a course back in the late 90's and it was a lot of tactics and coordination. I switched to playing airsoft because it seems to offer those things these days. Nothing better then knowing how you're going to react underfire. Yes, you'll need to make adjustments for what is concealment/cover/range etc. but a lot can be learned about yourself and others playing on a team, or even pick up games.

 

[slimmer13]

I am a member of a large scenario PB team (dont play too much anymore after kids though) and we would always destroy the "real world" type players (SWAT, Rangers, etc) because they played like it mattered if they got shot and we didnt.

 

[Riot]

Nothing better then knowing how you're going to react underfire.

Going to point out a few things here before this gets out of hand.

First of all, I love force-on-force training. Paintball, simunitions, airsoft, blanks, laser tag....whatever. This stuff is a great tool to substitute what a range cannot (i.e. reactive targets). Paintballing will show you how to adapt your shooting styles to take full advantage of your cover (one of the biggest reasons why I'm a fan of the Weaver is from paintballing). It teaches the importance of "leading" your target and taking advantage of situations (i.e. a flank isn't covered so you rush that side). It also can be used to gauge your physical fitness and overall health from running around playing game after game.

I used to love playing woods ball in a field in Fayetteville, NC. The field was HUGE (about 1/4 mile deep and an 1/8 mile wide) with all different types of obstacles (natural and unnatural). I would sprint deep out to a flank, wait for the other team to pass and strike. I averaged out at least five kills for every time I got hit.

Nevertheless, this is not actual combat and should not be associated with what a real firefight will entail. If you believe this, you may actually be forming "training scars" that will get you hurt or killed in a real-life SHTF encounter. For example, that plastic drum you take cover for paintball isn't going to stop a .22lr, let alone a 9mm. Paintballs guns also have limited distance and accuracy- causing many players to test weapon boundry areas (i.e. being in the field of fire but being 60 feet away knowing that you can dodge the paintball). Lastly, there are also always rules and limitations that paintball has. Most ranges don't allow fully automatic "markers", the ranges themselves have boundries that you cannot go out to or be attacked from, each team is usually ballanced to provide a fun and entertaining experience...I can go on and on but the point I'm trying to get accross is that this isn't combat and you cannot compare it to a "firefight" anymore than I can claim I know how to fly from playing the jets in Battelfield 3.

Take it for what it is....another type of training so that you can be more prepared for an actual shooting encounter- not as a replacement for combat experience.

 

[powersbj]

Why is there such an assumption of military style combat in so many people's survival fantasy?

 

[viehmann7680]

Why is there such an assumption of military style combat in so many people's survival fantasy?

What do you think would happen if SHTF??? People are just going to go on with their everyday lives? Everyone is going to be friendly??? Hell, Were not even in that scenario.... and no one is ever friendly! And not everyone is going to be using military style combat or tactics.... one more reason why it might be good to know that stuff. I've been to combat, even though I didn't see actual combat everyday you're still on guard everyday. You think you just walk up to people without making sure its safe? It would be the same in a SHTF situation. I'm not going to just walk up to people all willy nilly! I'd hate to say it, but I would have to treat them like an afghanie! Make sure it's safe, talk at a distance, that person isn't my friend and I will never trust him or her 100%. Anyone who has dealt with locals overseas knows this. You can smoke and joke with them.... but deep down you know you can't fully trust them. I think it would be wrong to think it won't be like combat. It won't be like Modern warfare either. We'll all become the locals in those countries.

 

[powersbj]

What do you think would happen if SHTF???

I think it would look like Somalia, or Mexico. It would be gang warfare, motorcycle clubs, drug runners and mafia. I think the most brutal, insane and evil of us would have the advantage. Or cops who know the streets and gangs. Those who are tuned into the culture of those who will kill you for a look. Those who know the nut jobs in the neighborhood, and who to avoid. Where you live would become someones territory, so how are you going to get along with them? How will you negotiate, how do you survive in that world? Force on force combat is Not likely.

 

[viehmann7680]

I agree that it would look like somalia or mexico and knowing whos who is a plus.... But I will not roll over and live in some gang territory or whatever. The whole point is that like minded people need to band together as a community and keep those people from doing that. I don't even know why you would be on this page if you think you would just let people like that run all over you. So yes it would be like force on force. I would not let people like that treat my family or neighbors that way.

 

[RVTECH]

I think it would look like Somalia, or Mexico. It would be gang warfare, motorcycle clubs, drug runners and mafia.

The only difference is the US is a much large country than those places and while some similar scenarios might happen they would most likely be centralized in the cities and urban areas where the majority of people live. I don't believe it would be widespread, and would likely be non-existent in rural areas.

 

[Decker]

Going to point out a few things here before this gets out of hand.

First of all, I love force-on-force training. Paintball, simunitions, airsoft, blanks, laser tag....whatever. This stuff is a great tool to substitute what a range cannot (i.e. reactive targets). Paintballing will show you how to adapt your shooting styles to take full advantage of your cover (one of the biggest reasons why I'm a fan of the Weaver is from paintballing). It teaches the importance of "leading" your target and taking advantage of situations (i.e. a flank isn't covered so you rush that side). It also can be used to gauge your physical fitness and overall health from running around playing game after game.

I used to love playing woods ball in a field in Fayetteville, NC. The field was HUGE (about 1/4 mile deep and an 1/8 mile wide) with all different types of obstacles (natural and unnatural). I would sprint deep out to a flank, wait for the other team to pass and strike. I averaged out at least five kills for every time I got hit.

Nevertheless, this is not actual combat and should not be associated with what a real firefight will entail. If you believe this, you may actually be forming "training scars" that will get you hurt or killed in a real-life SHTF encounter. For example, that plastic drum you take cover for paintball isn't going to stop a .22lr, let alone a 9mm. Paintballs guns also have limited distance and accuracy- causing many players to test weapon boundry areas (i.e. being in the field of fire but being 60 feet away knowing that you can dodge the paintball). Lastly, there are also always rules and limitations that paintball has. Most ranges don't allow fully automatic "markers", the ranges themselves have boundries that you cannot go out to or be attacked from, each team is usually ballanced to provide a fun and entertaining experience...I can go on and on but the point I'm trying to get accross is that this isn't combat and you cannot compare it to a "firefight" anymore than I can claim I know how to fly from playing the jets in Battelfield 3.

Take it for what it is....another type of training so that you can be more prepared for an actual shooting encounter- not as a replacement for combat experience.

Totally agree. Which is why I said adjustments needed to be made. But after reading my post again I really should have said stressful environment, not under fire. Good catch and correction, good Sir. Thank you!

 

[Bob D]

Paintball teaches people that concealment is the same as cover. That will get you dead in a hurry in a real firefight.

 

[RVTECH]

Is paintball still popular? I see the equipment being sold but never really hear much about it. Yes, I do live under a rock!

 

[powersbj]

I agree that it would look like somalia or mexico and knowing whos who is a plus.... But I will not roll over and live in some gang territory or whatever. The whole point is that like minded people need to band together as a community and keep those people from doing that. I don't even know why you would be on this page if you think you would just let people like that run all over you. So yes it would be like force on force. I would not let people like that treat my family or neighbors that way.

My personal feelings have nothing to do with what I think would be likely to happen or what plans i have in place. In the context of military personnel having an advantage over civilians I am simply stating whom I think has the best advantage in a collapse of all civilization, which I also think is a fantasy. I do think it is interesting that your plan to defeat the evil hordes of gangs, is to form your own gang and fight them... I would say that they are more experienced and much more brutal than you, and you would lose.

 

[Ought Six]

I would think that someone who had been in the Peace Corp and spent a year or three in some backward feces-hole village would have much more valuable experience than someone who had regular 11B infantry training.

But on the other hand, someone with U.S. Army special forces training would be invaluable, as they are essentially trained to deal with warlords and live in primitive conditions. Their negotiating skills when dealing with other local armed groups could be the difference between being raided or having that group as an ally. Their ability to engineer living solutions in rough situations would be equally valuable. But there are very few of those guys out there.