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claypigeon [COLOR="blue" said:
The one thing I can't find but would myself consider is that a no firearms sign posted at the entrance to a premises would be a "lawfull direction not to enter" if you have a firearm on your person. Now you have possibly commited criminal tresspass in posession of a firearm.[/COLOR]

§ 164.265¹

Criminal trespass while in possession of firearm
(1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm who, while in possession of a firearm, enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.


(2) Criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [1979 c.603 §2].[/COLOR]

Ok, lets see if this will put the issue to sleep.......

I just spoke with Captain Gates of the Multnomah County Sheriffs Office * (Aug 09, 2010 @ 3:47pm) I provided him with the points we are discussing here and he kindly provided the following: (with permission)

"No criminal violation occurs by the act of a legally CH licensed individual entering an establishment with a properly concealed handgun, that has been posted with a no firearms sign. (excepting those locations as specifically mentioned in the Statute, ie court house, etc.) The CHL holder would of course be required to vacate an establisment upon being ordered to do so or would face trespassing charges, as would anyone."


I was specifically directed to the Captain by the MCSO CHL unit to answer this question. Ok seems like the horses mouth to me. :s0155:
 
Ok, lets see if this will put the issue to sleep.......

I just spoke with Captain Gates of the Multnomah County Sheriffs Office * (Aug 09, 2010 @ 3:47pm) I provided him with the points we are discussing hereand he kindly provided the following: (with permission)

"No criminal violation occurs by the act of a legally CH licensed individual entering an establishment with a properly concealed handgun, that has been posted with a no firearms sign. (excepting those locations as specifically mentioned in the Statute, ie court house, etc.) The CHL holder would of course be required to vacate an establisment upon being ordered to do so or would face trespassing charges, as would anyone.


I was specifically directed to the Captain by the MCSO CHL to answer this question. Ok seems like the horses mouth to me. :s0155:

I prefer to stake my freedom on written law as opposed to the word of the sheriff’s office. No offense intended towards law enforcement but I would hate to catch one on the day his wife left him for another man and hope that he was feeling generous in his interpretation of the law.
 
I prefer to stake my freedom on written law as opposed to the word of the sheriff's office. No offense intended towards law enforcement but I would hate to catch one on the day his wife left him for another man and hope that he was feeling generous in his interpretation of the law.

Certainly your right to do so. I must admit though, if I were to adopt that frame of mind in going about my daily life, I would be afraid to leave the house. I might meet an officer somewhere in a bad mood who might twist a law against me !

The written word is a useful thing, when not taken to extremes. The problem we have here is that we can not have laws written to specifically include every minute situation that the human mind can imagine. If we did, we would have a stack of laws so complex that no-one could read or make sense of them (you know, kinda like the health care bill) At some point we have to employ our own individual common sense.

As for me, the oppinion of an individual of high command grade, in the same agency that issued my license is good enough for me. Now I can go about tackling my next burning life issue............................

How high can I let my grass grow before my wife makes me mow it ????
:confused:
 
Certainly your right to do so. I must admit though, if I were to adopt that frame of mind in going about my daily life, I would be afraid to leave the house. I might meet an officer somewhere in a bad mood who might twist a law against me !

The written word is a useful thing, when not taken to extremes. The problem we have here is that we can not have laws written to specifically include every minute situation that the human mind can imagine. If we did, we would have a stack of laws so complex that no-one could read or make sense of them (you know, kinda like the health bill) At some point we have to employ our own individual common sense.

As for me, the oppinion of an individual of high command grade, in the same agency that issued my license is good enough for me. Now I can go about tackling my next burning life issue, How high can I let my grass grow before my wife makes me mow it ????
:confused:


I can respect your view to an extent but I see no sense in disregarding the wishes of the property owners along with (possibly) breaking the law just to
Enter an establishment. Why not simply go somewhere else or respect the wishes of the property owner and not carry a firearm if you must go to that specific place.
Personaly I have not found many places that are posted and I could surely find an alternate.
I am not paranoid about regular life issues but when you throw a gun onto the mix, people get funny.
As far as a law for every minute, you are correct, but I am pretty sure this one is covered, at least to my satisfaction.I respect the officers opinion but that does not make it law and he may not be the one putting the cuffs on you.
 
I can respect your view to an extent but I see no sense in disregarding the wishes of the property owners along with (possibly) breaking the law just to
Enter an establishment. Why not simply go somewhere else or respect the wishes of the property owner and not carry a firearm if you must go to that specific place.
.

Here is a personal experience of mine that should answer your question.

In the past, my employer provided Kaiser health coverage, no other options. Upon visiting a Kaiser clinic one day I noticed the typical "No Guns" decal on the door. This clinic was in a questionable neighborhood and I was not comfortable with leaving my weapon in the car. Did I take it in there ? You bet I did. As part of my every day concealed practice, I use clothing that will securely contain my weapon and that will enable me to maintain control of it at all times. (as should we all). Now.....

Did I have a reasonable option to go some where else ? No.
Did I violate any law ? No.
Were the property rights of the establishment violated ? No complaints made or received. (because as far as anyone knew it did'nt happen) I engaged in a lawful activity in accordance with the statute. I properly concealed so no problems.

As a side note, I later visited the same clinic and noticed that the decal was gone. Curiosity got the best of me and I had to ask at the front desk. What happened to that "no guns" decal on the door ? ....."Oh ya, they found out they could'nt really do that" .......
Obviously someone in legal determined that they did'nt have any punch behind the requirement and they made a value decision.
 
Here is a personal experience of mine that should answer your question.

In the past, my employer provided Kaiser health coverage, no other options. Upon visiting a Kaiser clinic one day I noticed the typical "No Guns" decal on the door. This clinic was in a questionable neighborhood and I was not comfortable with leaving my weapon in the car. Did I take it in there ? You bet I did. As part of my every day concealed practice, I use clothing that will securely contain my weapon and that will enable me to maintain control of it at all times. (as should we all). Now.....

Did I have a reasonable option to go some where else ? No.
Did I violate any law ? No.
Were the property rights of the establishment violated ? No complaints made or received. (because as far as anyone knew it did'nt happen) I engaged in a lawful activity in accordance with the statute. I properly concealed so no problems.

As a side note, I later visited the same clinic and noticed that the decal was gone. Curiosity got the best of me and I had to ask at the front desk. What happened to that "no guns" decal on the door ? ....."Oh ya, they found out they could'nt really do that" .......
Obviously someone in legal determined that they did'nt have any punch behind the requirement and they made a value decision.

Did you break the law? You say no I say maybe.

Were the property rights violated? You say no because they did not know. So, if someone took one of your possesions from your home but you never noticed it missing does that mean they did not steal it? If you used a date rape drug on a girl and she could not remember what happened, does that mean she wasn't violated? Obviosly what you did was not anywhere near as severe as these examples, but this is my point from the get go. Just because no one found out does not make it right.

I have a strong box bolted to my vehicle so that in the rare occasion that I am unable to have my firearm with me, I can store it in a secure place until my return. I believe this is something all CHL holders should do.
 
Did you break the law? You say no I say maybe.

Were the property rights violated? You say no because they did not know. So, if someone took one of your possesions from your home but you never noticed it missing does that mean they did not steal it? If you used a date rape drug on a girl and she could not remember what happened, does that mean she wasn't violated? Obviosly what you did was not anywhere near as severe as these examples, but this is my point from the get go. Just because no one found out does not make it right.

I have a strong box bolted to my vehicle so that in the rare occasion that I am unable to have my firearm with me, I can store it in a secure place until my return. I believe this is something all CHL holders should do.

Of course the examples you provide are obvious crimes, with laws in-place to prohibit them. The conduct I describe is not illegal and you have yet to provide any cite of any law that specifically prohibits it. To this point, your most compelling argument has been that you can't trust law enforcement officers on this as you might run into one who would not correctly interpret the statute. Not one thing you have provided has supported your point.

I have at least provided the view of the MCSO's Captain Gates, one of the highest ranking law enforcement officials in Portland. I think it is time for you to provide something to substantiate your claims. Perhaps some one from a District Attorneys office or the like. Since you have not found anything in the statute that specifically supports your position, your point is lacking.
 
Last Edited:
Of course the examples you provide are obvious crimes, with laws in-place to prohibit them. The conduct I describe is not illegal and you have yet to provide any cite of any law that specifically prohibits it. To this point, your most compelling argument has been that you can't trust law enforcement officers on this as you might run into one who would not correctly interpret the statute. Not one thing you have provided has supported your point.

I have at least provided the view of the MCSO's Captain Gates, one of the highest ranking law enforcement officials in Portland. I think it is time for you to provide something to substantiate your claims. Perhaps some one from a District Attorneys office or the like. Since you have not found anything in the statute that specifically supports your position, your point is lacking.

There are laws in place to prohibit trespass too. That is what you are doing. The fact that Captain Gates would not feel the need to bring charges against you does not mean it is legal. He may not fell the need to inforce jaywalking laws either. I have already shown where in the law it is covered(164.205 3c). A sign that says "no firearms" is a "no trespass" sign and is legal notice or "Lawfull Direction" not to enter. The police may not bring charges but the property owner has the right to. If you are OK with dismissing the laws that don't agree with you that is up to you.
 
So much back and forth. You guys will never agree.

The message that the County Sheriff stated is the same message that our local PD and Sheriff has said. I will put my trust in carrying concealed and trusting my Law Enforcement. They have a pretty good track record for me.

Could'nt say it better myself. To continue this is pointless and getting kind of boring, I'm out.
 
OB1,

Thanks for finding the info from the Sheriff's office. That has been my contention all along. Earlier I said I would like info from a prosecuting attorney, but the sheriff, or local police are the people who present the case to the prosecuting attorney IF they believe a crime has occurred. If no case is presented, then there will be no prosecution.

OB1's info confirmed my belief, and I thank OB1 for taking the time to get an "official" word on this. That said, I believe my original contention has not been disproved, and I will let the rest of you debate this...without any more input from me.

Thanks very much OB1.
 
I was asked to find the statutes that supported my view from my original post. I did and I posted them. I am sorry if written law is not “official” enough for you guys. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

If you see "No Trespassing" signs posted at the border of someone’s property and go onto their property anyway you will probably not be arrested or charged with a crime and will only be asked to leave. That does not mean you have not done anything wrong. It comes down to a lack of mutual respect and morals which is the reason many of us feel the need to carry to begin with.
 
I was asked to find the statutes that supported my view from my original post. I did and I posted them. I am sorry if written law is not “official” enough for you guys. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

If you see "No Trespassing" signs posted at the border of someone’s property and go onto their property anyway you will probably not be arrested or charged with a crime and will only be asked to leave. That does not mean you have not done anything wrong. It comes down to a lack of mutual respect and morals which is the reason many of us feel the need to carry to begin with.

clay baby - this is so simple, you do as you see fit and the rest of us will do as we see fit. I will have a firearm at all times because you never know when you will need it. With all of the work place shootings and revenge type killings in public places I just can't see being without it.
I will not try to sway you or change your interpetation of the facts presented in all of the previous posts, but I will say good luck man!
 
clay baby - this is so simple, you do as you see fit and the rest of us will do as we see fit. I will have a firearm at all times because you never know when you will need it. With all of the work place shootings and revenge type killings in public places I just can't see being without it.
I will not try to sway you or change your interpetation of the facts presented in all of the previous posts, but I will say good luck man!

Reggie baby - I stated my position, was questioned on it and gave the proof. I am done. If you and anyone else want to continue to carry in those places that are posted, I can't stop you and obviosly won't change your mind.
 
Pizzacato on Division and 60th.

Was sitting at an outside table with friends and had a breeze blow my overshirt up. A fellow patron saw my carry piece and tattled. I was asked to leave and not come back, ever. This included the group of 5 others I was with.

So they lost six customers that day - for ever.

Me, I'd have been proud to sit next to you.

tac
Rannpháirtí ar an chiste le haghaidh athchóiriú an teach solais ag Rinn Meares
 
What's funny is, in the five years I've been carrying concealed, I have never seen a no firearms sign. I suppose like they say, ignorance is bliss. I don't see their signs, they don't see my gun and we all get along without incident.
 
There's a start to the list!

WAL-MART (82nd) - asked to leave

All Safeway's - asked to leave

Pizzacato on Division and 60th.

I'd be more than happy to up keep a list if someone wants to sticky it. I would start a post and go through and make entry's as they are posted by members.

What are the circumstances here?

Not saying it is necessarily right, WA is an open carry state, but I can see why they might ask someone to leave if you are carying a gun on your hip. The poster that had someone rat him out for his concealed is totally different, and I would probably not want to ever visit this place. You have to expect some negativity from walking around a supermarket or a Wal-Mart with a handgun out in the open. Way too many curious kids and parents with young kids. Pure stupidity if you ask me. Why would you want to paint a big target on yourself unless you really just like attention.

If this is not how it went down then at least explain more than "was asked to leave." But if someone on here was walking around with "people looking at him like he was bin laden," maybe it's because you are the only person in there strapped up for all to see.
 
There's a start to the list!

WAL-MART (82nd) - asked to leave

All Safeway's - asked to leave

Pizzacato on Division and 60th.

I'd be more than happy to up keep a list if someone wants to sticky it. I would start a post and go through and make entry's as they are posted by members.

Good idea Trismn....Here's a thought though. As we submit new businesses to this list, lets require some background information with each incident as to the circumstances behind their "anti" attitude, before we label them as such.

For example: ie.... "I went in there to have lunch with my Glock OC, when a customer looked at me and went to a waiter I was asked to leave." or...."I was carrying concealed at "SafeMeyers". As I carried my groceries to the checkstand, my "Ted Galco Combat Supreme" shifted and sent my Sig flying to the floor. The manager saw this and ordered me out of the store." or......."As I opened my wallet to fumble for my credit card, my state concealed license fell out. The employee handed it back to me and said "Oh. I am sorry but we dont want people having guns in here, you need to leave". or....."I saw a "no guns" sign on their door, so I just drove to a different store on the other side of town."

As we have seen in this thread, there is quite a wide spectrum of opinion in the board regarding this topic. With the examples I provided above, we would have different folks reacting differently to each situation. I would have an immediate reaction to each of the above scenarios, but I wont share them here (I dont want to start another tennis match). I do believe the idea of this list that you suggest is a good one. Giving a little background with each report would enable each of us to come to our own conclusions.
:s0155:
 

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