Thread: To shoot or not to shoot ... moving backwards

Originally Posted by 1stIDFMP

I was trained that any time you move - finger off the trigger. Finger only on the trigger if you are going to shoot..........

Not to get into the "what if" game but if a BG is moving at me with no love in his demeanor backing up or moving away from a BG at an angle and shooting him seems appropriate. Can't shoot if the finger isn't on the trigger.

Originally Posted by DoubleTapDrew

I wouldn't call him an idiot. He spent 20-some years in the military, most of it as a member of delta force (or combat applications group is what it's now called I think), and those guys typically are scary-good shots.

It was his experiences that caused me to wonder "huh???" and thus this thread.

Originally Posted by Stomper

I can tell you that its a LOT harder to hit a target that is moving laterally left and/or right and shooting at you, than it is to hit a target that is moving in a straight line forwards and backwards.

In my hangun courses we were limited to shooting and moving in the four basic directions. When moving laterally we might move 1-3 steps and stop. Working with an LEO friend he had me moving at an angle away from a threat and keep shooting until I felt I had stopped the threat.

Gotcha. Makes sense. Also seems to me there would be times you would want to be able to move and shoot at the same time, but I understand your point.

The very first part of my defensive handgun training was footwork. We started with moving backward and I still drill with that first; firing while retreating. Not necessarily in a straight line but away from the attack.

I would think tactically it would be necessary to be able to shoot and move at the sametime.

I would hazard a guess that Mr. Vickers said that because we either shoot good or move good. Very few people (Hollywood actors excluded of course) shoot well while moving. Not saying I dont practice it myself, but usually the only thing moving backwards does for you is create distance, and distance is not always your friend. Moving backwards does not change the angle of attack or take you out of your threats sights. Unless there is cover directly behind you, moving at a latteral angle is usually the better choice. Other views?

Tactics is a well worked endevor and limiting your training to one line of thinking is counter productive.

Moving backwards is whe WORST way to move, but knowing that and dealing with the reality of the situation it may be the ONLY option.

In training we train movement off the line of attack AFTER the shot is taken, and or PRIOR to shooting (move to cover).

If the SITUATION dictates a need to MOVE BACK then that is somthing you should learn how to do as safely as posible, talk to your trainer/instructor.

If you are doing a drill in class and you do not know the "why" ask the trainer/instructor, if they did not explain it prior to the drill.

Typicly the drills, and skills we shoot on the range the been explained, and dry practiced several times prior to the range.

I am sure the majority of the folks here have had advanced firearms training from a certified instructor (beyond the 3-4 hour CHL class)
so there was dry practice, gun handling, and movement drills in that training. I would encourage everyone to keep training, and expand your training whenever posible.

Continue to train, and please remember...

"Be Safe Out There!"

Respectfully,

ORSECTRAIN
"Be Safe Out There!"

Originally Posted by Keys1971

I would hazard a guess that Mr. Vickers said that because we either shoot good or move good. Very few people (Hollywood actors excluded of course) shoot well while moving. Not saying I dont practice it myself, but usually the only thing moving backwards does for you is create distance, and distance is not always your friend. Moving backwards does not change the angle of attack or take you out of your threats sights. Unless there is cover directly behind you, moving at a latteral angle is usually the better choice. Other views?

I agree but I can think of scenarios where shooting and moving away at the same time might be the best or perhaps only choice ... hallways and store aisles come to mind. I'm thinking if there is a threat that is shooting at me I'd rather not play chicken and advance towards the threat hoping I get lucky first. In this case I am thinking distance is my friend.

Thread ender -

What do executive protection people do? Cover the principal, lay down fire while moving to a protected position, then exiting the area.

Consider this when your with your wife, the bad guys at Walmart start opening up with Aks, and there you are pushing your stroller forward laying down fire with your 38 special because that is what some idiot at the firearms academy taught you to do.

Originally Posted by Kevatc

I agree but I can think of scenarios where shooting and moving away at the same time might be the best or perhaps only choice ... hallways and store aisles come to mind. I'm thinking if there is a threat that is shooting at me I'd rather not play chicken and advance towards the threat hoping I get lucky first. In this case I am thinking distance is my friend.

Be carefull with the distance is my friend thinking. Usually distance is your friend if and only if you are using a superior weapons system, i.e. long arm versus handgun. Or you are the better trained individual.

Originally Posted by Keys1971

Be carefull with the distance is my friend thinking. Usually distance is your friend if and only if you are using a superior weapons system, i.e. long arm versus handgun. Or you are the better trained individual.

Points taken. Just the same, my gun or the bad guys gun system shouldn't matter. I am not a soldier so advancing towards a threat by and large isn't going to be my primary concern. I might advance if that allows me to get better C & C but I am just guessing that most of the time getting away from a threat is going to be a good thing. If you can illustrate a good scenario why a private citizen might need to advance I am all ears. I am also interested in your thoughts about why it's not a good idea to move backwards and shoot.

Tactics aside I can shoot more accurately moving backwards than I can forwards.

Try your ideas out over at threat dynamics. It might open up some glitches in your theories. It did mine.

Hello Kevatc. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, computer issues. In my humble opinion it does matter what weapon your threat is using. If your threat is using an AR/AK/FAL etc., and your response is to move backwards and shoot, you are playing into your threats strengths. I have a very good scenario why this "might" not be a good idea. You are out with your family, and the worst happens, active shooter. What is going to happen to your family while you are slide stepping to the rear to gain distance. I know I have spoken with my family what to do in such a situation but, will they do it? I dont know. I would gladly advance on a threat if it took their focus off my family.

You can condition your body to do almost anything. However with that being said, as infants we were conditioned to walk forward. For the vast majority of our life we walk forward. It doesn't matter if you believe in evolution or creation, we as a species have been moving forwards for thousands of years. We are hard wired so to speak. Now throw in the most stressful situation you can imagine. You are in the middle of a chemical induced adrenaline dump, you are experiencing vaso constriction, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skills, you may have even voided your bowels. And now you want to go against thousands of years biology and move backwards at the same time you have a controlled explosion and flame mere inches from your face (gun going off)? Now Im not saying I dont practice this myself, but it is not my preferred method of movement. Just my .02 cents.

I would hazzard a guess that the reason you shoot better moving backwards is the same reason many shooters shoot better with their support hand. They are concentrating more on their sights and trigger press. Train safe, Keys

Originally Posted by Keys1971

I would hazzard a guess that the reason you shoot better moving backwards is the same reason many shooters shoot better with their support hand. They are concentrating more on their sights and trigger press. Train safe, Keys

To be honest, I have to concentrate on everything a lot more when trying to move forward. Not that I don't have to concentrate moving backwards and shooting but it is easier.

I've been looking for the video where Vickers talks about not shooting while moving backwards. I cam across this: Shooting on the Move and specifically this quote:

4) Practice shooting on the move in all directions; Of course moving straight toward an opponent or straight back is not ideal but may not be avoided. The fact of the matter is you need to be able to shoot on the move in any direction as despite what some instructors teach when and where you have to engage a threat cannot be accurately predicted in the real world unlike in an IPSC 3 gun match. Remember the hostile action of the threat is what dictates your actions not the beep from a shot timer.

Originally Posted by theficklefinger

Thread ender -

What do executive protection people do? Cover the principal, lay down fire while moving to a protected position, then exiting the area.

Consider this when your with your wife, the bad guys at Walmart start opening up with Aks, and there you are pushing your stroller forward laying down fire with your 38 special because that is what some idiot at the firearms academy taught you to do.

I agree. If you just have your standard carry handgun on you and maybe an extra mag, shoot the threat and move. Active shooters and other BG have planned for what they are doing and most of the time will have assault rifles, shotguns, or high capacity handguns.

I do a lot of firearms instruction and always cover shooting while moving backwards. If you review LE roadside shootings, as soon as rounds start flying the cops starts moving. Whether he was trained for it or not. Most of the times it a backpedal towards cover while laying down fire. Its a natural reaction and should be trained along with lateral or forward movements.

Also in response to the accuracy comment about moving backwards. I believe that your more acurate going backwards because your feet naturally provide a smooth, rolling walk. (not some crazy Michael Jackson moon walking). Just walking normal backwards provides a steadier platform than moving forwards.

Don't know where the original comment came from. I just took Larry Vicker's two day course over here in Central Oregon and shooting while moving backward was absolutely a part of the course. It was about a two hour exercise on Day 2; shooting while backing up, box drill. We even did a couple team drills where it was incorporated.