Thread: 911 tape of fatal home invasion shooting

Wenis, thanks for sharing this. Great post!

I am a private pilot. My instructor told me student pilots spend ~20% of their time learning the mechanical skills, and the rest developing your decision making skills. Due to the legal environment we must operate within, personal/home defense is very much the same. And we don't spend enough time on it. These threads are a great help.

Originally Posted by 56kninja

I figured as much. If the guy is on the ground, unless he is high and getting up again, I'd put my gun down.

If there's an imminent threat, I probably wouldn't (IE: They have a knife, and could lunge but haven't.)
If someone has a gun, I'm going to shoot them three times. Then I'm going to shoot them a couple more times. Repeat until they are sufficiently dead or the clip is empty.

fearing for you life or the safety (life) of others you can do what you need to stop the threat. If you feel threatened enough to pull the trigger you will probably empty the weapon because your so scared and not think about shooting 3 times then 2 more just in case...

that's crazy, that should be played for all the people in this world who say

why do you need a gun?

Originally Posted by hm1ing

fearing for you life or the safety (life) of others you can do what you need to stop the threat. If you feel threatened enough to pull the trigger you will probably empty the weapon because your so scared and not think about shooting 3 times then 2 more just in case...

Unless you've had a lot of practice with the Mozambique Drill...

I'll never forget the first time I shot a bull elk. Adrenaline does strange things.

I didn't feel the gun kick, I didn't hear the noise of the gun!! and I didn't know for sure how many rounds I fired (2) until I later checked my gun.

I think shooting a person in the house might be like that. Shoot until he's down and out and let the police and coroner count the bullets later.

$.02

I don't know about most people but anybody who breaks into my home with myself or my family there is considered by me to be a threat. He gets one verbal warning/chance to leave or surrender. That warning is followed by two in the chest and one in the head. There is no getting up after that. I holster my weapon and wait for the body bag to arrive.

This is a bunch of stupid bull crap!!!!!!

Quote."Brandishing is using your weapon to intimidate. That's the letter of the law. You can carry your pistol IWB, take off your overshirt and not be brandishing unless you do something stupid like stick your hip out, point to the grip and tell someone to back off or you're going to 'have to do something about it'. Then you're in trouble. If there is someone posing an imminent threat to your safety or the safety of the people in your home you can point that muzzle right at them.

If an intruder comes in, gets wounded but not killed then you won't face criminal charges if your actions were seen as appropriate to the situation. You'll get sued in civil court by the arsemonkey who came to rob you, but you should be clear in the eyes of the county. As to emptying the mag; go to jail, directly to jail. Your response has to be balanced. If he's still coming for you after two to the chest and you screaming for him to stop or you'll continue to fire; then put a few more in him. Then tell him to stop again, shoot more, warn him, shoot more. The verbal warnings predeeded by gunfire are what keep you safe. And please remember that it's your own admissions of the events that can hang you. 'He burst in and I just started shooting' will hang you quite well." End quote.

All that you typed may be true to law but if so then it's crap!!!!!

If someone that you feel is going to do harm to your body or someone who you are protecting like your wife and children then brandish that gun! That should be a warning that you will use deadly force if needed to protect me and my family so back away and leave me and my family alone.

Now if you are just trying to scare people with your gun then yeah, you need to have charges pressed on you!

Any intruder that will break into my home will have their life now at risk! I do not know what they are planning to do. They had the guts enough to break in and they may have the guts to try and kill us all.

Let someone try and push a LEO or their put hands on him/her. The LEO has the right to defend themselves and can and will shoot you. And rightfully so! They probably will not shoot just 1 bullet either. They might unload the clip. I have seen video after video of them rightfully doing it to protect themselves.

We as citizens should definetly have that right too!

Let a intruder break into a LEO's home and see if anything changes. If someone "burts in" then you should have the right to protect yourself and your family and use whatever means to stop that intruder. I say is you feel threatened START SHOOTING!

What whould you do LEO'S ?

As for a verbal warning. You might not get the chance. All it can take is one lunge from the bad guy and he could kill one of your loved ones. If an intruder breaks into my house I don't think he gets to have a chance to grab any of my children and possibly kill them. No!

That's true. If time and circumstance do not allow for a verbal warning (such as they burst in and start running at me or my family) no verbal warning may be issued. I'd let my .45 do my talking for me. I'd rather deal with all the legal bullcrap after the fact with my full families support than deal with the loss of a loved one.

The Oregon Police Academy in Monmouth teaches that a BG with a knife can cover 21 ft - 7 yards faster than you can react, draw and shoot. That also doesn't account for the clear fact that your first bullet may not immediately stop his assault. Police are taught that they should start shooting at 21 feet if it's a knife and a threat. They are also taught to "double tap" which means more than one and not necessarily just two.

Police draw their guns regularly if they aren't sure what or if there's a threat. They aren't doing it to "brandish," they are doing it to be ready. Brandishing has more to do with threatening someone specific who hasn't proven to be a threat. Police will certainly draw their guns to search a house or a yard around a house or even to approach a suspicious car. I guarantee you they'd draw it to search their own house or to confront a burglar.

If I hear a noise I don't like in the middle of the night I'm coming up with a shotgun, and keeping it ready until I know what's going on. That's not brandishing.

One more thing. While I sincerely hope that I never need to shoot anyone, I'm not giving an intruder a warning. That just gives him a chance to react first, and then to test my reaction time. I'm going off first, and right now unless it's some little kid or something.

Thanks for the info Gunner.

The decision to prosecute is typically (this is anecdotal from an attorney about 8 years ago) made on what side of the threshold the intruder is/was. If he is inside the threshold then there is no case. The jury thinks about protecting ones family and you did what you had to do. Outside the threshold the jury starts to ask if that stereo was worth someones life and that doesn't usually add up.

I recieved some law training from the Portland City Attorney 5 or 6 years ago an he pointed out that once the attack has been broken off (typically the first shot or two) you are no longer justified to use lethal force. You do not have the right to shoot a fleeing intruder.

In his example if your first shot hits him in the shoulder spinning him around and your second shot is in the back killing him you could be charged.

I would also caution some of you advocates for 'give 'em the whole nine yards' that if you are ever brought before a jury these types of public comments could get read into evidence. Be careful about what can be viewed as premeditated.

Originally Posted by CastleFox

You can't shoot someone just because they break into your home. They have to show intent and ability to cause serious physical harm to you or your family before you can use DEADLY force to stop them with a gun.

Actually that depends on what state you live in. Some places you can shoot a burglar just for being inside your home. Here is the RCW for Washington as an example since that is where I live.

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.


Now I am not a lawyer, so I may be interpreting this wrong. If there are any lawyers please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. My interpretation of this is that homicide is justifiable as a means of stopping a person from comitting a felony, or stopping them from causing great personal injury to a person. I am pretty sure that breaking and entering is a felony, so under this interpretation it sounds to me like shooting a burglar inside your home is justified regardless of whether he is armed, or has expressed intent to do harm to you or your family.

I feel that if a burglar has broken into my home, then indeed that is a threat to me and or my family. How long do I wait until I defend myself or my loved ones? Do I wait until One of my children is killed first?

I earlier posted the Oregon law and a couple of cases about Oregon law.

I believe it's clear enough that if the burglar is in your residence that's enough to shoot. I don't believe that you have to wait to find out if he's armed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It was also clear to me that it only applied to a residence and not to an outbuilding or storage building or barn or warehouse, etc. I believe then that you have to see a threat to yourself or someone else of death or serious bodily harm.

$.02

Your right gunner, the law allows for using deadly force on a burglar...and or if a reasonable person has a reasonable understanding that he is in imminnent threat of harm, injury of death.

The problem is not that you can't shoot him...it's proving afterward that he was a burglar...when he says 'Gee I was drunk and walked in the wrong house' or some kid says 'Gee, I went to school with your son and he said I could drop by'

The scary thing is it's now on you to prove this guy wasn't just trespassing...you can't kill a trespasser, but that he was in your house stealing...and that he was a threat to your life..

What I do...set up the house where he has to break something to get in...window, door ect..he can't walk in, or pick a lock ect...so it's obvious he was 'intent' on breaking and entering...two...he was there for a reason...and since B&E differs a little from being a burglar in that this guy is willing to steal while peeps are present, I would get him for armed robbery too...

The way the law is...your best to just point the 45 down the hallway, and say in 2 seconds I am coming down, shooting...time to leave....and give him the opportunity to escape, or capture him...without shooting...my favorite...

Beating the crap out of a bad guy, in your home is showing 'restraint' when you could have shot him....

But what if he comes back after getting out of jail....

Keep them outside, never getting in, in the first place...that's my strategy...

I can't seem to get the audio to load up. Are ya all using Firefox or IE to follow the op's link?

-d

another link at the bottom of the page that plays the entire 911 audio

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0409/613305.html

the operator telling them to put the gun down don't seem right.

Seems to be a common directive from dispatchers on 911. Over the last several years many similar 911 calls that have made it to national news have the common thread of the dispatcher saying don't shoot, put the gun down etc.