Thread: FBI Analysis on PA Police Shootout

I've seen Jack Rabbits and Racoons take a .40 (or a few) and keep going very well like nothing even happened. I have also seen Coyotes take a .223 hollow point at close range and run off. I actually shot a coyote at about 20 yards with my .223 and knocked it to the ground. It was on the run and I think I hit it in the guts, not the vitals. There was fresh snow on the ground and I was able to track it for about three miles before giving up.

These are both marginal rounds in regards to stopping power.

Originally Posted by wichaka

1) One can shoot the same bullet out of the same gun at the same angle, hitting the same media (clothing,skin,bone etc.) and get slightly varied results every time. There are too many variables in the human body that affect bullet performance.

I think that's what a lot of people don't get. I've shot a lot of coyotes with my .223 all using the same bullet (Nosler BT) and all under 100 yards. The results differ a lot from one to the next. Some drop like a rock never to get back up and others seem to be just slowed down for a few seconds. Shoulder shots and gut shots required follow up shots 100% of the time. It's not like hitting them with a large hunting caliber.

There is a lot more to it than most know. Google "Temporary Cavity" and read some of the information about that concept.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scienti...igh-speed.html

That's a good write up in the link.

Check out the statistics on the .38 specal. Long time law enforcement and military round.
Only problem, it does not come in a semi-auto, wheel gun only.

Originally Posted by Riot

Now THAT I can agree with.

Look guys, Congresswoman Grifford was shot in the head with a 9mm and lived. Yeah, it was miraculous that she lived, but ever wonder how many people Lee Loughner would have killed instead of injured if he was shooting a Glock 22 (40 S&W) with an extended mag versus a Glock 17 (9mm)? What about a .45? Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by CleverName

he was also shooting WWB fmj.

One fact that gets lost on the internet about her shooting. If he'd had modern JHP's instead of a FMJ's, I have no doubt that the Congresswoman would have died from those injuries.

Lucky for her, he was an idiot that didn't know better. Then again, the other innocent people he did kill are just as dead as if they would be if he'd used modern JHP's. Just goes to prove that shootings are wildly unpredictable, and even FMJ's can be deadly when put in the right places. I personally won't carry them though.

As I previously said, shot placement trumps caliber or bullet type every time. And speaking of what "I've shot" ... several elk, most notable was a vitals shot, where the elk just walked off as if nothing happened. A couple more were head shot, one was a brain stem hit. These dropped in place. BTW, the first one was killed, but walked over the hill and dropped there. All these were one shot hits (.30-06 Nosler 165 gr Ballistic tip). I should mention a deer head shot with a .17 Remington, which dropped in place as well. Shot placement.

Originally Posted by DP641

As I previously said, shot placement trumps caliber or bullet type every time. And speaking of what "I've shot" ... several elk, most notable was a vitals shot, where the elk just walked off as if nothing happened. A couple more were head shot, one was a brain stem hit. These dropped in place. BTW, the first one was killed, but walked over the hill and dropped there. All these were one shot hits (.30-06 Nosler 165 gr Ballistic tip). I should mention a deer head shot with a .17 Remington, which dropped in place as well. Shot placement.

Little bit of an old topic, but still needs addressed.

Shot placement is not everything...true, you can kill someone with a .22lr with a good shot and we've just recently heard of dude killing a bear with a pellet gun, but you also have to know the limitations of your caliber. A .223 to the head past 500 yards might not do much more than stun someone and I brought up the point about Congresswoman Gifford being shot in the head with 9mm...that brought up the JHP vs. FMJ debate, but I digress.

What you say is valid. We should take it into point that well placed shots to vital areas will stop someone quicker and more effectively than in a non-vital area. That is without question. Nevertheless the key to bullets is a ratio of how fast the bullet is traveling versus how much it weighs. Faster bullets means more penetration, heavier bullets mean more energy dispersed at impact. Now, I'm not ignorant enough to think that this overly simplified equation means that one bullet is better than another...9mm moves faster than .45 ACP but isn't as heavy as a .45ACP. They both have their pros and cons- they both have limitations and restrictions. Neither one is superior than the other, they just will have completely different results with each circumstance.

All I am saying, folks, is that shot placement isn't everything. People have been shot in the head and the heart with sub-par calibers and lived to tell about it and have been shot elsewhere with considerably bigger calibers and didn't manage to finish their sentence. No one gun or one caliber works for all situations....EVER. That was proven with these officer's .40 S&W pistols and ammunition with this particular shooting.

Rememberd reading in article about assailant presumed on angel dust attacking officers they fired between 6-10 shots from 357s perp then got on cruiser attacked car with axe and was shot in face with 12 ga. Thru rear window when he broke thru. Blew off car. when they came back with reinforcements perp was gone. What I took away from incident shoot and move dont stay put,dont count on anything doing exactly what you want.bring friends with guns asap. 12 ga.adjusta-bro's make good levers. Unless you hand out questionares before shooting plan for all senarios use proven tactics for surviving violent encounters