Thread: Pistol Operation

When performing reloads, malfunction clearances, etc. do you rack the slide or drop the slide via slide release? Why?

Not talking about plinking at the range, but rather training for serious use.

IMHO, dropping the slide via slide release is for newbies. I stopped doing it altogether because it creates unnecessary wear to the slide catch mechanism, my theory is some guns can fail to keep the slide open after firing the last round.

I agree; rack the slide every time. Thumb release is a fine motor skill that may be lost in the heat of the moment. Grabbing the slide and racking it like you mean it is good training IMO.

Why? Because I was taught it...

Each has it's pros and cons...you should always practice being able release the slide lock one-handed, reload with your shooting hand and even practice as if one of your hands is disabled. The key to training is to flexible and open-minded. Even though I'm against Appendix IWB carry, I do recognize the pros and cons to it.

IMHO, dropping the slide via slide release is for newbies.

I have to laugh when I read stuff like this. I guess if my other hand has a flashlight in it I'm a "newbie"? There are many other scenarios I can drum up that would require to manipulate the slide release, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes in this case). I see nothing wrong in using either the slide release or using the slide itself (by pulling back on the slide and releasing it) to reload...they both have their uses. Neither of them are "superior". One is faster, the other keeps your firing hand from having to reposition.

FYI I've never seen a slide release wear down to the point that it wouldn't lock back on an empty magazine. Not saying it couldn't happen, just never seen a worn down slide-release from "excessive use". Google has nothing on this...even The High Road has this to say about it.

A worn-out slide stop notch is a pretty rare occurrence, even in very well worn guns.

I always rack the slide. Don't really know why you would need to, just the way I was trained. Riot has some good reasons not to. But, I think I will contine to rack the slide. In a bad moment, if I have to reload, I am in a really, really bad moment. Most of the time my spare mag is in my truck's console.
Ed

If it really bothers you, get a revolver. I always rack the slide, operating the release changes my grip, and I would rather not do that. In the heat of the moment I will always change out a partially empty mag for a full one negating the need to rack the slide or operate the release.

Originally Posted by civilian75

IMHO, dropping the slide via slide release is for newbies.

I don’t know about that, Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe and Todd Green are all proponents of the slide release method; I’d hardly classify any of them as newbies.

If any of you "slide rackers" live in the S.W. Washington area and you want to discuss which way is better, faster, more reliable, easier to perform, etc. etc. etc. feel free to contact me via pm and we can meet at my home and discuss it on my range. The only people I know who rack the slide are those I see teaching the technique on TV, and those who have been taught by those racking the slide on TV............. Oh, and quite a few law enforcement agencies teach slide racking for those who are not proficient with a slide release.... Again, we can debate it on the internet, or pm me and we'll do a few unbiased test runs at my place. Thanks for listening and have a nice day!

Originally Posted by coop44

If it really bothers you, get a revolver. I always rack the slide, operating the release changes my grip, and I would rather not do that. In the heat of the moment I will always change out a partially empty mag for a full one negating the need to rack the slide or operate the release.

At least you have a grip when operating the slide release.

Originally Posted by Kimber Custom

I agree; rack the slide every time. Thumb release is a fine motor skill that may be lost in the heat of the moment. Grabbing the slide and racking it like you mean it is good training IMO.

Letting go of the gun with one hand is not a "skill" that I want to train to habit.

Originally Posted by civilian75

IMHO, dropping the slide via slide release is for newbies. I stopped doing it altogether because it creates unnecessary wear to the slide catch mechanism, my theory is some guns can fail to keep the slide open after firing the last round.

I have one particular 1911 that has been "slide released" maybe a million times?? You're welcome to stop by and shoot it if you wish.

Dropping the slide via slide release is much MUCH faster than using the "slide rack" method, and the "slide rack" method is not more reliable in a properly working firearm.

Rant over.

Originally Posted by civilian75

IMHO, dropping the slide via slide release is for newbies. I stopped doing it altogether because it creates unnecessary wear to the slide catch mechanism, my theory is some guns can fail to keep the slide open after firing the last round.

this is a pretty ridiculous statement.

the reason some organizations teach the slide rack is for sake of training masses where the lowest common denominator can be expected to be pretty low. it takes a slightly higher level of training to proficiently use the slide stop during an emergency reload, but you'll be a bullet or two faster once you nail it.

i switched to a support-thumb slide stop after a decade of tactical shooting... i don't fail to manipulate any more than i did before, and i'm noticeably faster back to sight picture.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

At least you have a grip when operating the slide release.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

Letting go of the gun with one hand is not a "skill" that I want to train to habit.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

I have one particular 1911 that has been "slide released" maybe a million times?? You're welcome to stop by and shoot it if you wish.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

Dropping the slide via slide release is much MUCH faster than using the "slide rack" method, and the "slide rack" method is not more reliable in a properly working firearm.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

Rant over.

switch to decaf, dude- freaken A.

Originally Posted by bkb0000

switch to decaf, dude- freaken A.

Firmly on the side of slide release. Kind of surprised to see a discussion of it. You're taking the firearm out of battery to rack the slide (I don't know anybody who racks the slide in the firing position, and it wouldn't be a good idea if it were ergonomically feasible because you'd have no control of where the muzzle wanders). Completely unnecessary, much slower, and potentially dangerous if you're not cautious where you're pointing it.

So by racking the slide after changing mags you are:

1. Taking the firearm further from the firing position, slowing you down.
2. In taking the firearm out of firing position, you're sweeping the muzzle who know where, probably somewhere towards your foot or leg.
3. Every time you drop a slide, you're taking a minute chance the firearm will discharge. That's why we train to be conscious of where the muzzle points when doing this

By using the slide release, you

-keep the firearm pointed down range, decreasing the chance of shooting yourself
-increase speed

Sweeping the slide release with you firing hand thumb shouldn't require losing your firing grip position. If it does, the firearm is too large for your hand. Your fingers stay in the same position. Moving the thumb to the slide relase and back should synchronize with re-indexing your support hand and allow your firing hand thumb to lie alongside your support thumb in the proper "long thumbs" cocked forward position.

It may take a little practice, but practice will train your sequence of actions with no problem. It is true that gross muscle movement is more reliable under stress than fine motor control. Sweeping your thumbup and down is not a fine motor movement. Reloading a magazine with rounds, wirting your name, putting a key in a keyhole, even gripping a slide: these are fine motor movements. Slide locks and thumb safeties are designed deliberately to be easy to sweep with a thumb. Kimber Custom, I recommend trying an experiment: unload your firearm (ideally have two). Lock the slide back. Do 5 minutes of jumping jacks as fast as you can while squeezing a stress ball in each hand on every jump. Now try both methods (slide release and slide rack) and see which is easier. It should be fairly obvious.

Somebody mentioned changing partial mags "in the heat" of action. Respectully, I doubt it. If your blood gets up you are going to empty that mag. The only time you would be able to switch partial mags is precisely when you're NOT in the heat of combat. When you have some momentary respite. And even then I doubt you will have counted your rounds.

When the slide locks back on an empty magazine is a perfect time to change it. You know you can't go any further with the current mag, because there's no more boom. The slide is back, a new mag only needs a sweep of the thumb and you're ready to fire again. The gun stays pointed in roughly the right direction, it's much faster back to readiness etc. etc.

Watch some videos people post of IPSC or IDPA matches, where they are being timed. I guarantee nobody who wins a match will have manually racked the slide on a fresh mag.

~NRA Certified Instructor # 178467647: Pistol and Chief Range Safety Officer

Who started this dumb *** adolescent discussion? Where is the NWFA taliban when you really need them?

Does NRA "certified" instructor mean something? Evidently not, looking at your "number", they must give them out like baseball cards.

Being a tad OCD is of benefit, I count, I know exactly how many rounds are in any of my firearms, at any time. Trust me changing a mag, is indeed quicker than changing the mag and releasibg the slide. I have taught too.

Originally Posted by coop44

Who started this dumb *** adolescent discussion? Where is the NWFA taliban when you really need them?

I am sorry you disapprove, please feel free to ignore this thread as well as any of my future posts if they bother you so.

Originally Posted by coop44

If it really bothers you, get a revolver.

Got ‘em and I’d be hard pressed to force one into a fighting arm role over a modern pistol.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

Letting go of the gun with one hand is not a "skill" that I want to train to habit.

You must have a he11 of of a time changing mags and performing TRBs

Originally Posted by TEricksen

Dropping the slide via slide release is much MUCH faster than using the "slide rack" method, and the "slide rack" method is not more reliable in a properly working firearm.

It is definitely faster but “much MUCH faster” is a stretch, at least for the competently trained. As far as the slide rack not being more reliable, try working left-handed and with a Walther PPK and get back to us.

Originally Posted by TEricksen

If any of you "slide rackers" live in the S.W. Washington area and you want to discuss which way is better, faster, more reliable, easier to perform, etc. etc. etc.

Better? I disagree
Faster? I agree
More reliable? I disagree
Etc, etc, etc? What is that?

Originally Posted by TEricksen

The only people I know who rack the slide are those I see teaching the technique on TV, and those who have been taught by those racking the slide on TV

Really? I am certain James Yeager (Tactical Response), Andy Stanford and Suarez International would call BS as they are all in the slide rack crowd.

Originally Posted by Riot

Each has it's pros and cons...you should always practice being able release the slide lock one-handed, reload with your shooting hand and even practice as if one of your hands is disabled. The key to training is to flexible and open-minded. Even though I'm against Appendix IWB carry, I do recognize the pros and cons to it.

Originally Posted by bkb0000

the reason some organizations teach the slide rack is for sake of training masses where the lowest common denominator can be expected to be pretty low. it takes a slightly higher level of training to proficiently use the slide stop during an emergency reload, but you'll be a bullet or two faster once you nail it.

Spot on.

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

So by racking the slide after changing mags you are:

1. Taking the firearm further from the firing position, slowing you down.
2. In taking the firearm out of firing position, you're sweeping the muzzle who know where, probably somewhere towards your foot or leg.
3. Every time you drop a slide, you're taking a minute chance the firearm will discharge. That's why we train to be conscious of where the muzzle points when doing this

I will add:
I've seen people short stroke their rack and cause a malfunction when their hand slips.
I've seen them cover the ejection port with their palm and cause a malfunction.
I've seen people engage the safety on with Berettas, 3rd Gen Smiths and other pistols with slide mounted Walther style safeties.
I’ve seen people sweep their weak hand with the muzzle when coming across to grasp the slide.

All of which can be overcome with training and practice.

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

Sweeping the slide release with you firing hand thumb shouldn't require losing your firing grip position. If it does, the firearm is too large for your hand. Your fingers stay in the same position. Moving the thumb to the slide release and back should synchronize with re-indexing your support hand and allow your firing hand thumb to lie alongside your support thumb in the proper "long thumbs" cocked forward position.

I disagree. Manipulating both the slide release with the shooting hand thumb and mag release should require a shift in the shooting hand grip otherwise they can be inadvertently activated at the wrong time. Personally when shooting right-handed I’d use the support hand thumb to drop the slide during a mag change.

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

Somebody mentioned changing partial mags "in the heat" of action. Respectully, I doubt it. If your blood gets up you are going to empty that mag. The only time you would be able to switch partial mags is precisely when you're NOT in the heat of combat. When you have some momentary respite. And even then I doubt you will have counted your rounds.

When the slide locks back on an empty magazine is a perfect time to change it. You know you can't go any further with the current mag, because there's no more boom. The slide is back, a new mag only needs a sweep of the thumb and you're ready to fire again. The gun stays pointed in roughly the right direction, it's much faster back to readiness etc. etc.

I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

Watch some videos people post of IPSC or IDPA matches, where they are being timed. I guarantee nobody who wins a match will have manually racked the slide on a fresh mag.

^^^

Originally Posted by titsonritz

Not talking about plinking at the range, but rather training for serious use.

Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch and most of the LE I know always rack over the top, real world tactical training, not game gun methods. Reasoning at Thunder Ranch was degradation of fine motor under stress and combining malfunction, clearance, and reload, and back in battery with same motion. I would never train or teach tactical training to try and find and manipulate the slide stop/release on semi auto malfunction,clearance, reload, some are almost impossible to hit and sit very flush to frame.
IMHO LongRange