Thread: Pistol Operation

I did a quick geneology trace on Zeke and Sig40. They are direct descendants of Wyatt Earp.

LOL comparing gun games and using a slide stop instead of over hand racking is nonsense.

Just because its faster doesn't mean its more efficient. I'm a lefty and I run a glock, using the slide stop isn't faster. As far as this moving the gun out of the shooting position is shenanigans. You reload at full extension, if so I won't get into retention issues. As far as sweeping, really?

Fine motor skills go out the window during critical stress.

Not to mention its called a "slide stop" for a reason not a slide release.

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

Firmly on the side of slide release. Kind of surprised to see a discussion of it. You're taking the firearm out of battery to rack the slide (I don't know anybody who racks the slide in the firing position, and it wouldn't be a good idea if it were ergonomically feasible because you'd have no control of where the muzzle wanders). Completely unnecessary, much slower, and potentially dangerous if you're not cautious where you're pointing it.

So by racking the slide after changing mags you are:

1. Taking the firearm further from the firing position, slowing you down.
2. In taking the firearm out of firing position, you're sweeping the muzzle who know where, probably somewhere towards your foot or leg.
3. Every time you drop a slide, you're taking a minute chance the firearm will discharge. That's why we train to be conscious of where the muzzle points when doing this

By using the slide release, you

-keep the firearm pointed down range, decreasing the chance of shooting yourself
-increase speed

Sweeping the slide release with you firing hand thumb shouldn't require losing your firing grip position. If it does, the firearm is too large for your hand. Your fingers stay in the same position. Moving the thumb to the slide relase and back should synchronize with re-indexing your support hand and allow your firing hand thumb to lie alongside your support thumb in the proper "long thumbs" cocked forward position.

It may take a little practice, but practice will train your sequence of actions with no problem. It is true that gross muscle movement is more reliable under stress than fine motor control. Sweeping your thumbup and down is not a fine motor movement. Reloading a magazine with rounds, wirting your name, putting a key in a keyhole, even gripping a slide: these are fine motor movements. Slide locks and thumb safeties are designed deliberately to be easy to sweep with a thumb. Kimber Custom, I recommend trying an experiment: unload your firearm (ideally have two). Lock the slide back. Do 5 minutes of jumping jacks as fast as you can while squeezing a stress ball in each hand on every jump. Now try both methods (slide release and slide rack) and see which is easier. It should be fairly obvious.

Somebody mentioned changing partial mags "in the heat" of action. Respectully, I doubt it. If your blood gets up you are going to empty that mag. The only time you would be able to switch partial mags is precisely when you're NOT in the heat of combat. When you have some momentary respite. And even then I doubt you will have counted your rounds.

When the slide locks back on an empty magazine is a perfect time to change it. You know you can't go any further with the current mag, because there's no more boom. The slide is back, a new mag only needs a sweep of the thumb and you're ready to fire again. The gun stays pointed in roughly the right direction, it's much faster back to readiness etc. etc.

Watch some videos people post of IPSC or IDPA matches, where they are being timed. I guarantee nobody who wins a match will have manually racked the slide on a fresh mag.

~NRA Certified Instructor # 178467647: Pistol and Chief Range Safety Officer

‪Pistol Handling-The Overhand Method‬‏ - YouTube

LOL spitpatch! Thank you JRV for sharing your youtube find. Very good information!!!

Video Commentary:

1. Actually, "Efficient" does mean faster.
2. If you are a lefty, you will need to adapt whichever way works best (more efficient) for you.
3. In order to reload using the "overhand method", you have to perform a completely separate operation. Using the slide release method with your left hand (talking to right handers here), there is no wasted or additional movements required. I'm happy to demo to anyone who wants to stop up and practice for a few hours.
4. The fact that one particular firearm does not happen to have a slide release........ Well, I would not own that particular firearm... Problem solved!
5. One handed manipulation of the slide release, in my opinion, is just plain stupid. If I practice using the slide release, and I lose my left hand, I can still go on to use the one-handed method........which you would have to do even in the "overhand method".
6. I do not understand your point about reloading at full extension? The overhand method is not performed at full extension, where the slide stop method can and many times is done from full extension...... Personally I have the slide into battery before full extension using the slide release.
7. A person will do what they train. Fine motor coordination is required at national competition level, and somehow everyone seems to hit that little slide release just fine.
8. Your video refers to the "slide stop" as a "slide release".
9. The overhand method is much slower than the slide release method.
10. All games aside, when *&^% hits the fan, I want to have practiced whichever method is more "efficient", i.e. faster.

Originally Posted by JRV

‪Pistol Handling-The Overhand Method‬‏ - YouTube

FAIL

Lol, he talks about consistency with the reload by using this method....then adapts it to firearms with decocking levers on the slide.

Here is my last two cents on this topic...

There is no better method. Period. What may work better for you, might not work for me. What may work with one firearm, might not work for another (even suggested by including a Bersa .380 in the video). Making things uniform because they work for you, or even most people is not a solution. Neither method is a bad habit. They both have there pros and cons.

The "slide stop" is internal and locks the slide back when the magazine is empty. The "slide release" is external and releases the slide. You can manually engage the slide stop using the slide release lever, but they are not the same thing. If you must be pedantic, try to be correct.

All the rules for training people on right-handed guns go out the window for lefties.

You can do one of three things: You can get a left-handed or ambidextrous gun. You can learn to shoot right handed (several lefties I know do this, and in fact can't shoot worth a damn left-handed.) Or, you can accept some inefficiencies in shooting a right-handed gun with a left-handed style. But the basic principles of what is best practice don't change- deviation from them for a personal disability like gripping strength issues, arthritis, or being left-handed (I kid, I kid!) are necessary practical COMPROMISES, not best practices.

Ergonomically conserving motions, practicing safety, consistency of grip and stance; these principles don't change. But determining if a particular motion is necessary is up to the individual's circumstances.

Lol at fail. Considering I teach his program and was certified by Rob I think I know what he teaches and what we teach in the program.

D.B.A.C

Originally Posted by Riot

FAIL

Lol, he talks about consistency with the reload by using this method....then adapts it to firearms with decocking levers on the slide.

Here is my last two cents on this topic...

There is no better method. Period. What may work better for you, might not work for me. What may work with one firearm, might not work for another (even suggested by including a Bersa .380 in the video). Making things uniform because they work for you, or even most people is not a solution. Neither method is a bad habit. They both have there pros and cons.

News flash you don't change the way you train a lefty. You train them the same way you would anyone else in a class.

D.B.A.C

Originally Posted by Thebastidge

The "slide stop" is internal and locks the slide back when the magazine is empty. The "slide release" is external and releases the slide. You can manually engage the slide stop using the slide release lever, but they are not the same thing. If you must be pedantic, try to be correct.

All the rules for training people on right-handed guns go out the window for lefties.

You can do one of three things: You can get a left-handed or ambidextrous gun. You can learn to shoot right handed (several lefties I know do this, and in fact can't shoot worth a damn left-handed.) Or, you can accept some inefficiencies in shooting a right-handed gun with a left-handed style. But the basic principles of what is best practice don't change- deviation from them for a personal disability like gripping strength issues, arthritis, or being left-handed (I kid, I kid!) are necessary practical COMPROMISES, not best practices.

Ergonomically conserving motions, practicing safety, consistency of grip and stance; these principles don't change. But determining if a particular motion is necessary is up to the individual's circumstances.

I mean the mechanical motions are different for lefties. Not just reversed. That should be pretty obvious from the tag end of what you quoted above. But now you're just being contentious.

All manipulations of the gun are done in close, not at full extension as Rob demonstrates in the video link posted. This is where we humans have the most of our strength and dexterity, yes even in a time of critical stress.

Whatever method one chooses, it should be the system you use when dry firing, live fire, CQB, Sims, and on out to the street. The bottom line, stay consistent with whatever you choose.
If you choose to carry different types of guns that have different fire controls, make sure your mind is set with what you have in the holster, as well as the holster you're using at the time.

The best example of not getting the proper mind set when changing guns, is like driving a stick shift vehicle for days on end, then jump in a auto-trans rig. One will tend to grab for the stick shift that's not there, and your foot will stab for the phantom clutch peddle.
Also remember the youtube video of that Tex guy that shot himself. He changed holster types and didn't reset his mind to the different function style.

There has been a lot of junk written by people who have only heard shots fired at a range or on t.v. Competitions such as IPSC, IDPA etc., have their place. Competition is fun, and if applied correctly to your training regimen, can really improve your marksmanship and overall handling/manipulation skills.
Be careful not to use competition and competition shooters to drive your equipment and training for you. As some of the equipment, moving to fast for tactical situations, as well as "showing clear" after a string of fire can have you making a premature purchase of the proverbial farm on the street.

You'd be wise to seek out folks who have seen parts of the elephant, better yet, have seen them a few times and different parts, you'll get a better perspective on things.

Be well.

Originally Posted by wichaka

Be careful not to use competition and competition shooters to drive your equipment and training for you. As some of the equipment, moving to fast for tactical situations, as well as "showing clear" after a string of fire can have you making a premature purchase of the proverbial farm on the street.

You'd be wise to seek out folks who have seen parts of the elephant, better yet, have seen them a few times and different parts, you'll get a better perspective on things.

Indeed well said