Thread: The armed American

About 10 or so years back the ranchers decided there was no real reason to de-horn (polling) cattle and if every cow had horns he or she would be equally armed (or horned?). So they stopped polling cattle and you know what, the number of injuries to other cows, to their amazement, did not rise.

So imagine you are on one of those flights that was aimed at the World Trade Center, September 11, and you are allowed to be armed . . . (just like every other cow on the plane) Do you really think the muslim perps would have succeeded?

Who said, "An armed society, is a polite society"?

Our society has degenerated to the point that it has because there are no longer consequences for peoples actions . If the bad guy assumes that you are willing to be a victim , and society frowns on you protecting yourself , he knows that he is safe doing what he damn well pleases without fear of punishment . I can only imagine that look of dull surprise when the common thug finds out that the assumed meek victim may have other ideas . Many things in todays world would change if there were consequences for bad behavior .

While I completely support the right to carry in any public place, I do not believe that it should apply to commercial airline flights.

The interior of an airliner is a confined space, with rows of people sitting in a vehicle that is 30,000 feet in the air and carrying thousands of gallons of jet fuel. It is not a safe enviorment to discharge a firearm unless one is highly trained and carrying a weapon with ammo that has been specially designed to eliminate the catastrophic risks of overpenetration.

Its a question of percentages. The odds of an armed civilian successfully and safely stopping an armed hijacking are far less than the odds that the armed civilian would shoot the aircraft up or kill an innocent bystander inside of the plane.

Appropriately trained and armed sky marshals or flight crew is one thing; armed civilians are quite another. In any other place I support the right to armed self defense, but not in an aircraft.

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Originally Posted by soberups

While I completely support the right to carry in any public place, I do not believe that it should apply to commercial airline flights.

The interior of an airliner is a confined space, with rows of people sitting in a vehicle that is 30,000 feet in the air and carrying thousands of gallons of jet fuel. It is not a safe enviorment to discharge a firearm unless one is highly trained and carrying a weapon with ammo that has been specially designed to eliminate the catastrophic risks of overpenetration.

Its a question of percentages. The odds of an armed civilian successfully and safely stopping an armed hijacking are far less than the odds that the armed civilian would shoot the aircraft up or kill an innocent bystander inside of the plane.

Appropriately trained and armed sky marshals or flight crew is one thing; armed civilians are quite another. In any other place I support the right to armed self defense, but not in an aircraft.

I agree, but I think every flight should have at least one Marshal at the airlines expense.

anybody watch cops last night? i guy was playing ping pong with 2 other fellas at his home and there was an argument. the 2 guys jumped him, he asked them to leave they jumped him again so he pulled his concealed carry and shot one of them 2x, in the arm and abdomen. The guy's face looked pretty well worked over- to legitimize his claim. Cops interrogate the guy and ask where he was when he shot- he said i was in my home. Where was your gun? on my waist band- i have a CCW and was doing so legally. Why were u carrying a gun? I always do. What are you paranoind? No but i always carry. You are under arrest for attempted murder.
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WTF- i dont get it and what was up with this LEO's attitude? Does he not carry a gun as well?

"Please make sure your firearm sits completely under the seat in front of you prior to takeoff."

I slightly agree. While Hollywood's upsold the dangers of guns on planes, those scenes of a plane ripping to shreds from a single bullet hole have been throughly debunked. Still, the marshal system was in prior to 911, but was random flights at best. even now not all flights are covered. step up the marshals.

As far as the ground is concerned, it's a HECK of a deterrent against crime, when you really don't know if the guy behind the counter or the woman walking down the street might make you regret the professional/amateur criminal decision you've made.

Are there bad men who are exceptions to the rule? Duh, but the US has had a history of screwing 99% of more-or-less good, non-pain-in-the-mule people for the troublemaking 1%.

Originally Posted by bolen05

anybody watch cops last night? i guy was playing ping pong with 2 other fellas at his home and there was an argument. the 2 guys jumped him, he asked them to leave they jumped him again so he pulled his concealed carry and shot one of them 2x, in the arm and abdomen. The guy's face looked pretty well worked over- to legitimize his claim. Cops interrogate the guy and ask where he was when he shot- he said i was in my home. Where was your gun? on my waist band- i have a CCW and was doing so legally. Why were u carrying a gun? I always do. What are you paranoind? No but i always carry. You are under arrest for attempted murder.
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WTF- i dont get it and what was up with this LEO's attitude? Does he not carry a gun as well?

The new training and hiring process for LE is to be anti-gun and to demonize people that carry firearms and other self defense weapons

Every contact I have had with leo while carrying has been positive and friendly . I have a neighbor going thru the hiring process in a Portland area sheriff 's office . I'll ask him what the current trend is and get back to you .

At this point in history, even a hijacker armed with a pair of full-auto P90s and supernatural reflexes would not be able to defend himself for very long against a planeload of unarmed, pissed-off passengers...

Originally Posted by bolen05

anybody watch cops last night? i guy was playing ping pong with 2 other fellas at his home and there was an argument. the 2 guys jumped him, he asked them to leave they jumped him again so he pulled his concealed carry and shot one of them 2x, in the arm and abdomen. The guy's face looked pretty well worked over- to legitimize his claim. Cops interrogate the guy and ask where he was when he shot- he said i was in my home. Where was your gun? on my waist band- i have a CCW and was doing so legally. Why were u carrying a gun? I always do. What are you paranoind? No but i always carry. You are under arrest for attempted murder.
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WTF- i dont get it and what was up with this LEO's attitude? Does he not carry a gun as well?

I saw this, and I think the reason they arrested him was because he was drunk and his story was changed half way through. A smart man would not have talked to the cops at all, and asked for his lawyer.

Originally Posted by bolen05

anybody watch cops last night? i guy was playing ping pong with 2 other fellas at his home and there was an argument. the 2 guys jumped him, he asked them to leave they jumped him again so he pulled his concealed carry and shot one of them 2x, in the arm and abdomen. The guy's face looked pretty well worked over- to legitimize his claim. Cops interrogate the guy and ask where he was when he shot- he said i was in my home. Where was your gun? on my waist band- i have a CCW and was doing so legally. Why were u carrying a gun? I always do. What are you paranoind? No but i always carry. You are under arrest for attempted murder.
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WTF- i dont get it and what was up with this LEO's attitude? Does he not carry a gun as well?

DO NOT EVER answer a police offices question!!!! Ask for a lawyer, be polite but ask for a lawyer because as soon as you open your big mouth to a cop you are GUILTY!!! Remember, "anything you say can and will be used against you"! Notice it does not say, for you or in your defense? Our system has become so convoluted that today you are GUILTY until proven innocent and the police are building a case against YOU!!! DO NOT EVER answer a police offices question!!!! Demand to speak to a lawyer!!!!!

Originally Posted by soberups

While I completely support the right to carry in any public place, I do not believe that it should apply to commercial airline flights.

The interior of an airliner is a confined space, with rows of people sitting in a vehicle that is 30,000 feet in the air and carrying thousands of gallons of jet fuel. It is not a safe enviorment to discharge a firearm unless one is highly trained and carrying a weapon with ammo that has been specially designed to eliminate the catastrophic risks of overpenetration.

Its a question of percentages. The odds of an armed civilian successfully and safely stopping an armed hijacking are far less than the odds that the armed civilian would shoot the aircraft up or kill an innocent bystander inside of the plane.

Appropriately trained and armed sky marshals or flight crew is one thing; armed civilians are quite another. In any other place I support the right to armed self defense, but not in an aircraft.

Famous last words of mis-placed authority, "I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle this Glock Fortay ..."

It was perfectly legal for Americans to carry guns on airplanes until the hijackings started in the 1970s. And some did. Even in the old movies you can see scenes of a guy packing a revolver on a plane flight as casually as carrying his hat. I don't recall ever hearing of an inflight shooting by a whacko or nincompoop civilian back on the 1950s or 1960s. Do you?

You are losing the culture war when you accept the government's premise that you and your fellow citizens can not be trusted with your own safety. Your statement is very close kin to the anti-gunners' lie about gubs in homes more often injure and kill the family than intruders.

Originally Posted by NWPilgrim

Famous last words of mis-placed authority, "I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle this Glock Fortay ..."

It was perfectly legal for Americans to carry guns on airplanes until the hijackings started in the 1970s. And some did. Even in the old movies you can see scenes of a guy packing a revolver on a plane flight as casually as carrying his hat. I don't recall ever hearing of an inflight shooting by a whacko or nincompoop civilian back on the 1950s or 1960s. Do you?

You are losing the culture war when you accept the government's premise that you and your fellow citizens can not be trusted with your own safety. Your statement is very close kin to the anti-gunners' lie about gubs in homes more often injure and kill the family than intruders.

The real question is, would a muslim fanatic even attempt to hi-jack a plane with chance of at least one or two armed United States citizens on board?
Also, they do make rounds that will stay in the confines of the aircraft.

Frangible rounds right? but, not many own those rounds ya?

Originally Posted by BlvdKing

I agree, but I think every flight should have at least one Marshal at the airlines expense.

That would be nice...especially since most airlines charge $20+ per check-in bag, it would be nice to know that my money was actually going for my own safety and in a public servant's pocket.

Originally Posted by zeezee

DO NOT EVER answer a police offices question!!!! Ask for a lawyer, be polite but ask for a lawyer because as soon as you open your big mouth to a cop you are GUILTY!!!

Couldn't agree more. Here's the best explanation I've ever seen:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...&hl=en&fs=true

Originally Posted by zeezee

DO NOT EVER answer a police offices question!!!! Ask for a lawyer, be polite but ask for a lawyer because as soon as you open your big mouth to a cop you are GUILTY!!!

While I think this is a little hasty, and being a person that highly respects LEOs I couldn't agree more. No matter how right you are, or how clear the situation. Always, Always ask for a lawyer and don't give any information regarding the incident. I have a lot of LEO friends and they all say 99% of the time if people kept their mouths shut they would get away with whatever they commited.

I personally try to just be a good citizen by obeying the law. But any one of us can come across the situation when pulling a gun is necessary.

Originally Posted by NWPilgrim

....You are losing the culture war when you accept the government's premise that you and your fellow citizens can not be trusted with your own safety. Your statement is very close kin to the anti-gunners' lie about gubs in homes more often injure and kill the family than intruders.

Incorrect.

We arent talking about guns or self-defense in the home or in a public place. We are talking about guns on board a jet airliner loaded with thousands of gallons of fuel flying at 30,000 feet. It is a unique situation that demands unique security measures.

Another thing to remember is that, even if it werent illegal, there is no way any airline would expose itself to the legal liability of allowing firearms on board one of their planes; and since those aircraft are private property, the airlines are perfectly within their rights to forbid guns if they so choose.

Originally Posted by NWPilgrim

Famous last words of mis-placed authority, "I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle this Glock Fortay ..."

But he wasnt....and he wound up putting a round thru his foot and into the floor.

What would have happened if that fool had pulled the same stunt at 30,000 feet? He very well may have put that round into an engine, or a fuel tank, or some other critical component.

I am already trusting the pilot of the aircraft with my life; so its not a big stretch for me to trust him with a weapon, preferably loaded with frangible ammo.

If someone is handling a firearm unsafely in a public place, I have the option of leaving the area. I dont have that option when I am sitting on an airplane.