Thread: The armed American

Originally Posted by soberups

Incorrect.

We arent talking about guns or self-defense in the home or in a public place. We are talking about guns on board a jet airliner loaded with thousands of gallons of fuel flying at 30,000 feet. It is a unique situation that demands unique security measures.

Another thing to remember is that, even if it werent illegal, there is no way any airline would expose itself to the legal liability of allowing firearms on board one of their planes; and since those aircraft are private property, the airlines are perfectly within their rights to forbid guns if they so choose.

There is a big difference between a private company exercising it rights and the federal government banning guns from all airlines. I am all for private airlines exercising their discretion. Inevitably there would be some airlines that would cater to the armed citizen and allow carry, probably commuters. So at least there miught be a choice.

With a federal ban there is no choice.

Originally Posted by soberups

But he wasnt....and he wound up putting a round thru his foot and into the floor.

What would have happened if that fool had pulled the same stunt at 30,000 feet? He very well may have put that round into an engine, or a fuel tank, or some other critical component.

I am already trusting the pilot of the aircraft with my life; so its not a big stretch for me to trust him with a weapon, preferably loaded with frangible ammo.

If someone is handling a firearm unsafely in a public place, I have the option of leaving the area. I dont have that option when I am sitting on an airplane.

You make my point! The person I was quoting and you expanded on was a federally trained DEA agent and even he had a negligent discharge. You proposed only federally trained air marshals should be armed. Are they also the "only ones professional enough to handle" a firearm on a airplane?

I totally agree that pilots should be armed. And I think airlines should be allowed to chose themselves whether to allow firearms, and not have an across the board federal ban.

Can you name one incident prior to the federal ban in the late 1970s (that is from 1930-1973ish) in which an armed law abiding civilian injured other passengers or damaged an airplane? Your concern over reckless, untrained civilians may be much more theoretical than practical. In fact, I have read that in actual use of firearms that civilians have about 1/4 the improper use of firearms than police officers.

Incorrect.

We arent talking about guns or self-defense in the home or in a public place. We are talking about guns on board a jet airliner loaded with thousands of gallons of fuel flying at 30,000 feet. It is a unique situation that demands unique security measures.

Another thing to remember is that, even if it weren't illegal, there is no way any airline would expose itself to the legal liability of allowing firearms on board one of their planes; and since those aircraft are private property, the airlines are perfectly within their rights to forbid guns if they so choose.

Hmmm, box cutter or firearm? AHHHH, no firearms allowed but we have box cutters, we will use anything and everything to kill Americans, especially stupid defenseless, someone call the cops I'm scared, asinine, but it's against the law idiots!!!!! Illegal? And what those seven f'ing terrorist did was legal? But the real question for you is, if we were allowed to be armed as the United States Constitution Second Amendment says we are and IF armed Americans were on those planes, would the terrorist have succeeded and do you think the cowardly rag heads would have even tried. It's easy to hide behind the law as that muslim UNITED STATES Major did when he turned a gun on people he knew were unarmed and couldn't fight back. Our laws, like the rules of engagement on men have to follow in afghanistan have us all tied & bent over allowing the cowards wearing dish towels to have there way with us. Kill as many Americans as you want, like the Jews in Germany they will hide behind the law, not believing it can or will happen to them. Maybe OUR LAWS should read; You are free to carry a handgun upon said aircraft but you must use frangible ammunition. May we count upon your cooperation if the need arises, sign here and have a nice safe flight.

there is no way any airline would expose itself to the legal liability Yeah, they would rather pay the dependents after the fact. I love America but I HATE our legal system.

Originally Posted by ZachS

At this point in history, even a hijacker armed with a pair of full-auto P90s and supernatural reflexes would not be able to defend himself for very long against a planeload of unarmed, pissed-off passengers...

add in to the equation:

with nothing to lose. Do nothing, you die. Do something, you might not.

rather a "rigged" equation, I'd say. As it should be.
one armed hijacker against a planeload of captives, nothing to lose? How many rounds does he have? Sooner or later, he'll empty his mag and have to either reload or throw the paperweight at someone... time to jump him.


One thing NOT done, as far as I know, since the commerical airline missile plot: bulletproof and locked doors to the flight deck. I believe Israel have done this. That, and two armed air marshalls in the compartment just between the passengers and the flight deck. End of all hijacking attempts. Why aren't WE that smart? Even go so far as outside doors only to the flight deck. No matter WHAT anyone in the cabin does, they still can't get to the crew. The plane goes where it is supposed to go. SImple. and don't tell me it can't be done, or that it won't work, or that pilots won't like it.

Originally Posted by soberups

But he wasnt....and he wound up putting a round thru his foot and into the floor.

What would have happened if that fool had pulled the same stunt at 30,000 feet? He very well may have put that round into an engine, or a fuel tank, or some other critical component.

I am already trusting the pilot of the aircraft with my life; so its not a big stretch for me to trust him with a weapon, preferably loaded with frangible ammo.

If someone is handling a firearm unsafely in a public place, I have the option of leaving the area. I dont have that option when I am sitting on an airplane.

OK, so aircraft have vulnerable areas. Engines are out under the wings, or at the stern, high up. You'd have to try to hit one. Shoot down through the floor you hit the baggage compartment. Might pop some guy's deodorant can..... ding someone's carseat or stroller. So what?

Every situation is different....... and it falls to the one carrying the firearm to know THE PRESENT situation and govern himself appropriately. Not much frangible ammunition out there, you say? Well, step up the demand for it (for carry on aircraft) and it WILL be there. Supply and demand, free market, and all that. Hey, I'd even have some on hand if they'd let me carry a concealed weapon aboard an aircraft... or bus. If I worked in a restaurant or retail store in a crowded area, I'd carry subsonic frangible.... just in case someone came in and needed "readjusting". I'd not want to shoot anyone sitting in the next business over, now, would I?

Come ON, the exact same rules apply no matter where you are, once you carry. KEEP POINTED IN SAFE DIRECTION. In many places, there IS no safe direction, even in your holster or pocket. It gets relative sometimes. THINK.... and choose the best direction. What do the air marshalls do? THEY always have that muzzle pointed SOMEWHERE< don't they? Well, then, what says I can't learn the same things they know, and DO them? It ain't that hard. Or esoteric.

The hijacker would not hav to defend hisslef. He would yell your racist and the sheepoile would immediate sit down so the ACLU would not sue them for imnnterfering with the raghead religion of killing infedels.

I have a huge concern with the aircraft scenario..........Target fixation..

How many practice with loved ones and potentially explosive materials behind the target?????

Many trained folks have shot their own (wing, tail, fellows) because of target fixation......

Not to mention ...most folks haven't trained in combating adrenaline dump....A dynamic situation ain't like being at the range.......even in competition or training.......

Most folks have a tendency to think of their best effort as their standard............When the green lights go red.....their worst might be their standard.... And my worst shooting ain't pretty.....

I'm not sure why numerous people keep talking about the "explosive" jet fuel and its danger. Does anyone but me on here actually know what JP-4, 6 and 8 are and the differences between the two? It's high sulfer kerosene with biocides and antifreezs depending on the specs. Now go fire a round into a can of kerosene and see what happens. Nothing..

It's jet fuel - not rocket fuel ...and no you won't get sucked out the bullet hole in the cabin either. Some of you guys have been watching way too much TV

You will pass out slowly in a cabin depressurization and that's about it.

Just keep the perps away from any O2 masks and they'll stay out to about 17,000 - 20,000 feet before they wake up again. Clock them in the head and repeat as needed until you are on the ground.

I'm not sure why numerous people keep talking about the "explosive" jet fuel and its danger. Does anyone but me on here actually know what JP-4, 6 and 8 are and the differences between the two? It's high sulfer kerosene with biocides and antifreezs depending on the specs.

Yeah... I've schlepped enough barrels of JET-B to last a lifetime (I've worked in lots of bush camps)....It contributes mightily to a good bonfire.....

Regardless, my experience at ranges tells me....A planeload of pistol firing citizens (many of whom can't agree on FMJ vs. JHP or 9mm vs. .45) will have many unintended targets with various sized and shaped holes....

Originally Posted by soberups

While I completely support the right to carry in any public place, I do not believe that it should apply to commercial airline flights.

The interior of an airliner is a confined space, with rows of people sitting in a vehicle that is 30,000 feet in the air and carrying thousands of gallons of jet fuel. It is not a safe enviorment to discharge a firearm unless one is highly trained and carrying a weapon with ammo that has been specially designed to eliminate the catastrophic risks of overpenetration.

Its a question of percentages. The odds of an armed civilian successfully and safely stopping an armed hijacking are far less than the odds that the armed civilian would shoot the aircraft up or kill an innocent bystander inside of the plane.

Appropriately trained and armed sky marshals or flight crew is one thing; armed civilians are quite another. In any other place I support the right to armed self defense, but not in an aircraft.

I always advocate for handing all passengers a billy club on the way to their seats. Terrorist can be armed any way they think they can get past security. I'll stick with the side of the 200 people with blunt objects and incentive.

Originally Posted by zeezee

Who said, "An armed society, is a polite society"?

Robert A. Heinlein

While the various JPs are not notably explosive, I would not want to have to calculate the loss rate from a half inch hole in a tank somewhere over the Pacific. Planes are built light not stout.

America should offer a separate level of CCW, offered on a national level, for law abiding citizens who take many many hours of courses and demonstrate a professional level of pistol marksmanship. These national carriers would not be bound by state regulations for carry. They would be allowed to carry anywhere they wanted, including in airports and on commercial flights.

Originally Posted by Arkarayne

Frangible rounds right? but, not many own those rounds ya?

in .45.

Since I don't carry or shoot much on airliners they're stored for now.

Deen
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