Thread: Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup Shotgun.....

Originally Posted by SonicBlue03

Actually...I did. Because of the very reasons you listed as to why Kel-Tec is lower tier.

Lorcins can put lead downrange too, but I wouldn't ever put my life in the hands of either Kel-Tec or Lorcin to properly defend it.

I can draw some pretty cool, innovative stuff, but I wouldn't trust me to build it. If their design team is that good, it would behoove them to try and merge with a company that knows a thing or two about QC and manufacturing.

Well I appreciate your honesty that this is what you said and that those who came to your defense did not need to. I am curious though, just how vast is your experience with Keltec products? Personally I wouldn't pay $50 for a Lorcin, but I and others have no problem paying $250 for a PF9 or P11. How many Keltecs, have you owned, shot or carried? Are you saying you can draw something just as good on the back of a napkin? All you need is a good manufacturer to back you up. Really? If so you must be a genius and I would be really impressed. What is your better mouse trap?

Let's take a survey from those who have actually owned their products and see what the real data is about consumer satisfaction.

I'll start. I have owned 2 P11s and 2 PF9s. I loved them all and am highly satisfied and would trust my life with any of them, never any malfunctions. My only beef was the lack of availability of night sights. Which I prefer on a defensive pistol. They are light weight easy to conceal and do the specific job they were designed to do very well. They are not designed to be a duty weapon so I don't see that having the LE community "not embrace them" as such is not an issue for me.

Lets go guys, love em or hate em? Honest opinions of those who actual have first hand experience with Keltec products. Isn't that the point of this forum?

I got an email from TheGunSource announcing that they are taking preorders for the KSG. They have it listed at $615, so maybe they have got their pricing from Kel-Tec. They don't list a release date though.
Kel-Tec Rifles/Shotguns keltec ksg shotgun, ksg, matte blac - TheGunSource

Originally Posted by rsmccsman

Well I appreciate your honesty that this is what you said and that those who came to your defense did not need to. I am curious though, just how vast is your experience with Keltec products? Personally I wouldn't pay $50 for a Lorcin, but I and others have no problem paying $250 for a PF9 or P11. How many Keltecs, have you owned, shot or carried? Are you saying you can draw something just as good on the back of a napkin? All you need is a good manufacturer to back you up. Really? If so you must be a genius and I would be really impressed. What is your better mouse trap?

Let's take a survey from those who have actually owned their products and see what the real data is about consumer satisfaction.

I'll start. I have owned 2 P11s and 2 PF9s. I loved them all and am highly satisfied and would trust my life with any of them, never any malfunctions. My only beef was the lack of availability of night sights. Which I prefer on a defensive pistol. They are light weight easy to conceal and do the specific job they were designed to do very well. They are not designed to be a duty weapon so I don't see that having the LE community "not embrace them" as such is not an issue for me.

Lets go guys, love em or hate em? Honest opinions of those who actual have first hand experience with Keltec products. Isn't that the point of this forum?

Sorry on the delay. Just saw this.

My experience is from handling and shooting at a couple of ranges. I was comparing Kel-Tec from a backup/carry perspective. I wanted something small and concealable, which Kel-Tec seems to tend to bend more that way in terms of pistol frame/size for me. One of the ranges I go to lets you shoot what they have, and at the time they had one available for shooting. Ergonomically it felt cheap and flimsy to me, insofar as a gun can feel flimsy. It felt a lot to me like the old Ruger P89's. Plastic-y and cheap. I get that the feel doesn't necessarily match performance, but I experienced feeding issues, generally inconsistent rounds-to-paper and for me that was enough. I did comparisons with other weapons around the same size (Ruger, funny enough, a Taurus, and a couple of others) with the same ammo - the other guns performed varying on the scale, but Kel-Tec was consistently the worst performer with the same ammo, and the feel just never worked for me.

Originally Posted by SonicBlue03

Sorry on the delay. Just saw this.

My experience is from handling and shooting at a couple of ranges. I was comparing Kel-Tec from a backup/carry perspective. I wanted something small and concealable, which Kel-Tec seems to tend to bend more that way in terms of pistol frame/size for me. One of the ranges I go to lets you shoot what they have, and at the time they had one available for shooting. Ergonomically it felt cheap and flimsy to me, insofar as a gun can feel flimsy. It felt a lot to me like the old Ruger P89's. Plastic-y and cheap. I get that the feel doesn't necessarily match performance, but I experienced feeding issues, generally inconsistent rounds-to-paper and for me that was enough. I did comparisons with other weapons around the same size (Ruger, funny enough, a Taurus, and a couple of others) with the same ammo - the other guns performed varying on the scale, but Kel-Tec was consistently the worst performer with the same ammo, and the feel just never worked for me.

Ergonomics are how things work or fit with the human body. In a gun it would be related to the placement of controls and the way the grip feels or fits in your hand. Can you reach the slide release or magazine release without adjusting your shooting hand grip? That would be an ergonomic issue. It doesn't make sense to describe ergonomics as "cheap and flimsy." Cheap would be more your impression of quality of manufacture and materials, it would be more useful to describe specific issues with description of the fit and finish. As far as flimsy I'm not sure what you mean by that except maybe that it is extremely lightweight. If you dropped it and some parts broke off and it suddenly no longer worked that would be flimsy. However, you describe it as cheap and plastic-y and then compare it to a Ruger P-89 which is probably as different as a handgun can get from a kel-tec. P-89s are not plastic they are all steel and weigh 32 ounces (more than some full size 1911s), and more than twice that of the keltec. Athough the P89 is not my cup of tea, my reasons have nothing to do with how well they work. " Reviews have considered them (P89) rugged, reliable, and strong, though this strength comes at the price of bulk and a blocky appearance.[2]" (wikepedia) That would be a pretty good compliment for a "cheap, flimsy plastic-y" Kel-Tec to be compared to a gun that most describe as a solid reliable heavy chunk of metal.

The problems you described about failure to feed and inconsistent rounds to paper (accuracy?) maybe related to training and technique. You also said "the other guns performed varying on the scale." Sounds like you weren't thrilled with them either. Although I did not witness your technique let me just make the following points. Generally smaller lighter guns are more difficult to shoot well than heavier larger guns. Think of those tiny screwdrivers they sell to women with little handles and you will get the picture. Unless you have the pinky extension on the magazine you will likely only have a couple fingers on the grip and "felt" recoil is generally greater the lighter and smaller the gun. If you limp wrist it or don't have a proper grip you can easily induce failure to feed. (not always the guns fault.) Likewise I have found keltecs to have very acceptable accuracy. They will do about as well as the operator. If you focus on the front sight, and have smooth trigger control with surprise trigger break you will get good groups. The Keltec has a long double action only trigger pull and it does take some getting use to this arrangement. Many people have similar issues with snub nose revolvers. They are not easy guns to shoot well.

Now It is perfectly ok to not like a particular gun or to prefer the way one looks or feels over another, I am just as guilty of that as anyone here on the forum. However training is key and more important than finding the "right gun." As for me I would rather have a "cheap" Keltec and be properly trained than a $1000 supergun and not be trained to use it.

"A person is no more armed because they own a gun than they are a musician because they own a piano." Col Jeff Cooper.

Any gun will do - if you will do. Front Sight's moto.

Originally Posted by Reco

Turn that bad boy into a 20+1 with 12 GA Mini-Buckshot Aguila

new term for BOOSH!~

-Reco

They do not feed well in most guns

Two things wrong with this gun; Kel Tec

I love my PF9. The extractor hold down screw got a little loose around 1500 rounds or so. Got told what the problem was, tightened it right up. It's my EDC, comfortable as can be, and when things are really intense, you won't feel the kick nor hear the blast, and I'm okay with that. Any FTF's I've had have all come down to gripping it too loose, which is common to all small handguns. It was happening one evening at the range because my hand was a little beat up after around 200 flawless rounds through it and I wasn't holding it tightly.
I'm good for 5" groups at 25 feet. The gun can do much better.
I like Kel-Tec's innovation so much my next three purchases will be Kel-Tec products, another PF-9, an RFB, and an SU-16C. It would actually be four if it weren't so much hassle to get a KSG right now, I didn't already have a 12ga, and my short wife could tolerate full 12ga recoil. The KSG has nothing to help that, nor do I see that changing any time soon. In time, though...

I shoot the same way, every time. I've never had issues with my HK, my SIG, my Colt, FN, or even my Beretta. But I agree, that absolutely could have been a factor. This is a case where it was not.

I was selfish and omitted that my wife participated in this exercise. When she was a Mid @ Navy she was a student pistol instructor. She had the same problems with the Kel-Tec and decided to stick with a single primary.

I have owned a number of Kel-Tec pistols and rifles, starting back in the 90's with a P11 and a P40. One of my P11's has over 5k rounds through it, and has NEVER failed on me in any way. That said, I watched a friend who was a pistol instructor in the Marines proceed to have several failures to feed with it, and also fail to hit accurately with it. He was used to 1911's and M9's, and the light weight and long/heavy trigger were unfamiliar to him. After some work with it he was able to hit consistently with it and get it to function reliably, and he borrowed it from me when he needed a more concealable carry gun for a few weeks.

One of the keys to Kel-Tecs is the realization that their fit and finish may not be on par with higher cost firearms, but with a few simple tools and some time you can have one smoothed up and ready to go hundreds or thousands of rounds with minimal wear (the smoothed slide rails will cause much less wear on the aluminum receiver).

They had to discontinue their P40 pistols because so many were sent back for "malfunctions" but worked perfectly at the factory. I got to be a "test guinea pig" at the factory once, and put several magazines through P40s that had been sent back. Every one of them worked fine for me and their gunsmith. Unfortunately that may have been one of the reasons they went ahead and discontinued (seeing that it wasn't just some "magic" technique by the gunsmith to make them work). In other words, such a light and powerful pistol requires a firm grip to allow the recoil mechanism to function.

Start talking hundreds of thousands of reliable rounds like a Glock can do and I'll maybe trust them

One guy on glocktalk.com has done a + 1 million round torture test of a G21 pistol including tossing it out of an airplane several times, freezing it in various mud/sand concoctions, burying it in his yard in the mud for 2 years, etc.. and it still perks with the original springs. A Kel Tec would have died from this abuse in short order

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

Start talking hundreds of thousands of reliable rounds like a Glock can do and I'll maybe trust them

One guy on glocktalk.com has done a + 1 million round torture test of a G21 pistol including tossing it out of an airplane several times, freezing it in various mud/sand concoctions, burying it in his yard in the mud for 2 years, etc.. and it still perks with the original springs. A Kel Tec would have died from this abuse in short order

I think you may be slightly exaggerating the amount of rounds through Bigbore's Glock 21, maybe by around 850,000.

Still an impressive feat shooting 150K+ rounds through any gun, add in the amount of abuse that gun has went through and it's even more impressive.

Originally Posted by DoubleTapDrew

I got an email from TheGunSource announcing that they are taking preorders for the KSG. They have it listed at $615, so maybe they have got their pricing from Kel-Tec. They don't list a release date though.
Kel-Tec Rifles/Shotguns keltec ksg shotgun, ksg, matte blac - TheGunSource

now pricing at $674.

Originally Posted by Michael

They had to discontinue their P40 pistols because so many were sent back for "malfunctions" but worked perfectly at the factory. I got to be a "test guinea pig" at the factory once, and put several magazines through P40s that had been sent back. Every one of them worked fine for me and their gunsmith. Unfortunately that may have been one of the reasons they went ahead and discontinued (seeing that it wasn't just some "magic" technique by the gunsmith to make them work). In other words, such a light and powerful pistol requires a firm grip to allow the recoil mechanism to function.

I've had P-11's (one with the P-40 conversion), a P-40 and the even rarer .357 SIG barrel. The P-40/357 SIG is hard to shoot. If you tend to weak wrist them you will be in trouble and most blame the gun. Mine does not misfire, or misfeed when I shoot it. Most people just don't know how to shoot them and cause their own problems. And yes that's why KT quit making them.

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