Thread: FAL or AR

What is everyones thougts on this subject. When SHTF would it be better to have the power of the .308 or the availabilty parts and ammo of the AR?

I just talked to a local engineer he is working on an AR in 308

i dont no but i have the ars and a bolt 3006 for the long range stuff but to be honest i think the ar is good in a urban area

What knuckle head said. I have an SA-58 (DSA FAL) and an AR. If I could only have one, I'd probably stick with the SA-58 which I got first. The AR is nice and light, comparatively speaking, and easy to get parts for, but it hard to beat the power of the .308 and the reliability of the FAL. They are both good systems, so I don't know that choosing one or the other would be wrong. There are reasons for either or both.

AR-15, especially in the suburbs/urban areas. there's a reason SWAT use M4 instead of FAL.

The answer to your question is "it depends". I think you have to look at the pros and cons of each weapon. Then place yourself with either weapon in the most likely scenarios. The number of scenarios are limited to your imagination. A m4 works better in some situations than a FAL and vice versa.

"AR-15, especially in the suburbs/urban areas. there's a reason SWAT use M4 instead of FAL."
I imagine that SWAT doesnt really like the overpenetration characteristics of the 7.62 NATO in their non-sniper units.

I have a FAL (stg 58).

M1A/M14, FAL, or Saiga .308. I wanna be throwing bricks if if comes to that, and I dont wanna be messing with no lego set if it comes to that .

Originally Posted by slimer13

M1A/M14, FAL, or Saiga .308. I wanna be throwing bricks if if comes to that, and I dont wanna be messing with no lego set if it comes to that .

In regards to Blue Devil PA and slimer13's comments:

We are talking about shtf.... wrol..... society is f*cked up and people are hurting eachother to survive. A good real life example of this would be the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and during the L.A riots. Both situations were 100% shtf scenarios, and nobody can debate against that fact.

And I am also talking about the suburbs & urban areas, not rural areas where people own several acres of open land.

in a suburb/urban area during shtf, you most likely have most people out and about cooperating and not harming eachother... looking for supplies and help. The point of carrying a rifle would be to deter or neutralize the "bad apples" of the population that WILL harm you for their own gains. in a situation like this where you remain in close proximity to other people, you DO NOT want overpenetration. imagine this very likely scenario: you get a cut from a piece of rebar while trekking through a disaster zone and you ran out of antibiotics. luckily your local walmart, although ransacked and pillaged, still might have some antibiotic ointments left. you walk to there and find many people scavaging for supplies. although they don't have a smile on their faces, they are not harming you, and minding their own business. suddenly, a man with a pistol rushes into the store and starts shooting and yelling "this store now belongs to me!". You have people panicking and running everywhere to safety. Would you want a .308/7.62NATO that'll rip through him, a brick wall, and several other people (exxageration)?

Plus, "I wanna be throwing bricks" - slimer13.... what would be the purpose of lodging a huge 7.62NATO round in a man during shtf? you are talking about a situation where people are trying to survive. even the "bad guys" are just trying to survive. a 7.62NATO may be nice in a battlefield/war where people are willing to SACRIFICE their life to fight, but when we're talking about shtf, a single 5.56NATO/.223 will neutralize the threat. why? because one hit of a 5.56NATO will send ANY man running when he is trying to SURVIVE. plus, in a shtf scenario, a 5.56NATO to anywhere on the body (besides extremeties) would result in a fatality due to lack of medical services available, and the same goes for 7.62NATO. So the mortality rate of getting hit by a 5.56NATO and a 7.62NATO would be equal. Sure, a person may survive a 5.56NATO in a battlefield after getting hit in the abdomen because of the medical treatment facilities readily available... but in shtf, all the doctors and surgeons are hiding in their bunkers with their canned beans. And have you seen the ballistics gel results of 5.56NATO and 7.62NATO? although, ofcourse, the 7.62 leaves a larger wound channel... both rounds would be MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to incapacitate or kill. most incapacitations will likely result in death due to infections and bleeding and lack of available medical services. the human body is at times resilient, but also extremely fragile.

and ofcourse there's the issue of weight of the rounds. if you're ever in a situation where you have to pull out your rifle instead of a handgun or shotgun, it will most likely be in an engagement distance of 50yds or more. in such a situation, the main tactic used would be to cover fire and move. in other words, you will be using many many many rounds in the hopes of moving in for the kill, or deterring the bad guy and persuade him to leave. Also during shtf, even if you had a bugout vehicle, walking would probably be the main mode of transportation because it is quiet and requires no petrol. have you ever served in the armed forces? the difference between carrying a M4 and a combat loadout and carrying a rifle comparable to a .308 FAL and a combat loadout is like the difference between heaven and hell after you've patrolled 15 miles. the 7.62 round is considerable larger and heavier than the 5.56NATO, and .308 rifles tend to be heavier than .223 rifles.




in any case, if i was bunkered in my home with family members and friends, i'd keep many different rifles, many different handguns, many different shotguns, and many different marksman/sniper rifles. rifles for general purpose use (most likely in my household AR-15s and AK-47s). handguns for personal defense (everybody carries one at all times). shotguns for guarding the house at close ranges and indoors (12 guage buckshot or birdshot), and the marksman/sniper rifle for the people on scout duty on top of the roof looking for potential bad guys or suspicious people approaching my homely abode (this would be where .308 comes into play. lets say, a dragunov or my romanian PSL).

But let's say i'm out on patrol in my bugout vehicle with a buddy, and i'm out to get some more supplies from pillaged stores. I would personally carry an AR-15 slinged across my chest, a 9mm handgun holstered by my waist, and a 12g shotgun in my trunk. why would i not bring my m1A?

because accuracy and firepower is nice, but speed kills.

I tend to stay out of these discussions because are we talking about weapons or tactics? Seems it leans to one side or the other with no clear picture for an answer.

jj

They both kill the crap out of people, so check that box for both. Next, look at ammunition capacity and shootability....

Originally Posted by Just Jim

I tend to stay out of these discussions because are we talking about weapons or tactics? Seems it leans to one side or the other with no clear picture for an answer.

jj

Hi Just Jim,

I would imagine that weapons and tactics intertwine intimately. Your choice of weapon would depend on preconceived tactics, and vise versa.

Originally Posted by SurvivalistSong

Hi Just Jim,

I would imagine that weapons and tactics intertwine intimately. Your choice of weapon would depends on preconceived tactics, and vise versa.

Exactly what I was talking about. The weapon you choose will limit your tactics so to ask which is better depends on what you intend your world to be like in a SHTF.

Originally Posted by Just Jim

Exactly what I was talking about. The weapon you choose will limit your tactics so to ask which is better depends on what you intend your world to be like in a SHTF.

i agree. so the debate is not a debate of which rifle is "better" per se, but rather a debate of what we conceive a shtf scenario to consist of on a situational basis.

Umm BOTH. If you can afford to, why not? Options are fun and can allow you to become more versatile if you put in the effort.

Originally Posted by SurvivalistSong

i agree. so the debate is not a debate of which rifle is "better" per se, but rather a debate of what we conceive a shtf scenario to consist of on a situational basis.

The OP was which do we see as better the FAL 308 or the M4 556 in a SHTF. The poster didn't say as a team weapon or as a lone wolf so a reply is limited by trying to figure out what's in the mind of the OP. Plus no exact SHTF scenario. Is it the TEOTWAWKI or just another LA riot? If we are going to daydream then might as well make it out to be a nightmare example don't you think? LOL

Originally Posted by SurvivalistSong

In regards to Blue Devil PA and slimer13's comments:

We are talking about shtf.... wrol..... society is f*cked up and people are hurting eachother to survive. A good real life example of this would be the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and during the L.A riots. Both situations were 100% shtf scenarios, and nobody can debate against that fact.

And I am also talking about the suburbs & urban areas, not rural areas where people own several acres of open land.

in a suburb/urban area during shtf, you most likely have most people out and about cooperating and not harming eachother... looking for supplies and help. The point of carrying a rifle would be to deter or neutralize the "bad apples" of the population that WILL harm you for their own gains. in a situation like this where you remain in close proximity to other people, you DO NOT want overpenetration. imagine this very likely scenario: you get a cut from a piece of rebar while trekking through a disaster zone and you ran out of antibiotics. luckily your local walmart, although ransacked and pillaged, still might have some antibiotic ointments left. you walk to there and find many people scavaging for supplies. although they don't have a smile on their faces, they are not harming you, and minding their own business. suddenly, a man with a pistol rushes into the store and starts shooting and yelling "this store now belongs to me!". You have people panicking and running everywhere to safety. Would you want a .308/7.62NATO that'll rip through him, a brick wall, and several other people (exxageration)?

Plus, "I wanna be throwing bricks" - slimer13.... what would be the purpose of lodging a huge 7.62NATO round in a man during shtf? you are talking about a situation where people are trying to survive. even the "bad guys" are just trying to survive. a 7.62NATO may be nice in a battlefield/war where people are willing to SACRIFICE their life to fight, but when we're talking about shtf, a single 5.56NATO/.223 will neutralize the threat. why? because one hit of a 5.56NATO will send ANY man running when he is trying to SURVIVE. plus, in a shtf scenario, a 5.56NATO to anywhere on the body (besides extremeties) would result in a fatality due to lack of medical services available, and the same goes for 7.62NATO. So the mortality rate of getting hit by a 5.56NATO and a 7.62NATO would be equal. Sure, a person may survive a 5.56NATO in a battlefield after getting hit in the abdomen because of the medical treatment facilities readily available... but in shtf, all the doctors and surgeons are hiding in their bunkers with their canned beans. And have you seen the ballistics gel results of 5.56NATO and 7.62NATO? although, ofcourse, the 7.62 leaves a larger wound channel... both rounds would be MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to incapacitate or kill. most incapacitations will likely result in death due to infections and bleeding and lack of available medical services. the human body is at times resilient, but also extremely fragile.

and ofcourse there's the issue of weight of the rounds. if you're ever in a situation where you have to pull out your rifle instead of a handgun or shotgun, it will most likely be in an engagement distance of 50yds or more. in such a situation, the main tactic used would be to cover fire and move. in other words, you will be using many many many rounds in the hopes of moving in for the kill, or deterring the bad guy and persuade him to leave. Also during shtf, even if you had a bugout vehicle, walking would probably be the main mode of transportation because it is quiet and requires no petrol. have you ever served in the armed forces? the difference between carrying a M4 and a combat loadout and carrying a rifle comparable to a .308 FAL and a combat loadout is like the difference between heaven and hell after you've patrolled 15 miles. the 7.62 round is considerable larger and heavier than the 5.56NATO, and .308 rifles tend to be heavier than .223 rifles.




in any case, if i was bunkered in my home with family members and friends, i'd keep many different rifles, many different handguns, many different shotguns, and many different marksman/sniper rifles. rifles for general purpose use (most likely in my household AR-15s and AK-47s). handguns for personal defense (everybody carries one at all times). shotguns for guarding the house at close ranges and indoors (12 guage buckshot or birdshot), and the marksman/sniper rifle for the people on scout duty on top of the roof looking for potential bad guys or suspicious people approaching my homely abode (this would be where .308 comes into play. lets say, a dragunov or my romanian PSL).

But let's say i'm out on patrol in my bugout vehicle with a buddy, and i'm out to get some more supplies from pillaged stores. I would personally carry an AR-15 slinged across my chest, a 9mm handgun holstered by my waist, and a 12g shotgun in my trunk. why would i not bring my m1A?

because accuracy and firepower is nice, but speed kills.

There are way too many problems with this post...too many to point them all out. But I will say this- if you are taking your gun for a walk while looking for antibiotic ointment...alone....slung over your back...just in case a dude runs in with a gun...then you (and people like you) are the reason why I will be as far away from the city as possible.

I think you need some training on force on force...maybe a sim-round course or one of the NWFA courses. Or maybe just shut off the computer.

Originally Posted by Riot

There are way too many problems with this post...too many to point them all out.

there is one problem with your post. and that is you have no point.

Originally Posted by redmud

I just talked to a local engineer he is working on an AR in 308

You mean an AR10?

17 post before it goes down hill. Better than average LOL

jj

Well I reread the OP and must have missed that one on the initial pass. Was a little confused, not trying to be a dick......that much.