Thread: UPDATE: Holder will testify; ATF merry-go-round

And the hits keep coming:



BREAKING: Holder to testify Feb. 2 before House Oversight Committee

Embattled Attorney General Eric Holder will testify before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, chaired by Congressman Darrell Issa, on Thursday, Feb. 2.

BREAKING: Holder to testify Feb. 2 before House Oversight Committee - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com

Well, isn't that normal until the investigation is complete ? Our forum specialists of course already established who knew what, who benefited how, and who is responsible over all. But for normal people the investigation has to be completed before any conclusions are made.

^

Implying a government-run investigation will ever blame the government for wrongdoings. Normal people know the government can never be trusted.

But the government is the solution to everything...

Originally Posted by dmancornell

^

Implying a government-run investigation will ever blame the government for wrongdoings. Normal people know the government can never be trusted.

That's called paranoid schizophrenia, and it is hardly normal.

^

And in your "sane" world, cops killing civilians is almost always justified, Wall Street is responsible for the 08 financial meltdown, lack of gun control was responsible for every spree killing in the past 3 decades, the Taliban killed Pat Tillman, and the original M16A1 rifle functioned perfectly in Vietnam.... just to name a few. Government investigations said so.

Yep, let's all trust the government because the evidence and their exemplary track record.

Originally Posted by dmancornell

^

And in your "sane" world, cops killing civilians is always justified, Wall Street is responsible for the 08 financial meltdown, and lack of gun control was responsible for every spree killing in the past 3 decades. Because government investigations said so.

Yep, let's all trust the government because the evidence and their exemplary track record.

Perhaps you could provide some links to the mentioned reports ? I have heard of officers being convicted for unjustified use of force. It is also my understanding that speculative practices of financial companies caused the melt down. As for killing sprees and gun control, it's too abstract and I can't comment until I see the report.

look up the word testify in the secret govt. dictionary, it means #1 lie your butt off, #2 cover your own butt at all cost, #3 point the finger at someone else, #4 plead the fifth, #5 i did not have sex with that woman

Originally Posted by fd15k

Perhaps you could provide some links to the mentioned reports ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/bu...26inquiry.html. Google to find the full 500+ page report. In summary, the blame is spread around instead of focusing entirely on the fact that cheap government money was the primary reason the financial firms allowed themselves to take unusually risky investments (too big to fail was already a precedent after the LTCM bailout). The Frank-Dodd legislation is a direct result of those government lies, it codifies too-big-to fail.

Cops killing civilians, just go look at the Jose Guerena and John Williams cases, or this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSfOBPlY2n0, all of which was somehow ruled justified. The only high profile conviction of a cop in recent history was the BART shooting and that was after massive public outrage. Government will never convict one of its own unless the public is out for blood.

In regards to the M16A1 rifle and the government's role in possibly hundreds of soldier deaths in Vietnam, this book talks extensively about the government's continuous stonewalling and eventual blaming of Colt (in a report, of course), for its own malfeasance: http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chiver...5715639&sr=8-1

If you want to talk specifically about Gunrunner, your first post says Holder testifying is "normal". Indeed it is, but you seem to expect him to actually speak honestly about the topic at hand. I'm saying he won't and he will continue to lie and stonewall because that is the nature of government, basically, maintaining the supremacy of government will always be more important than accountability to the peons. Feel free to post your reasons why you still trust a word that man says.

Originally Posted by fd15k

That's called paranoid schizophrenia, and it is hardly normal.

Actually, I think what he's saying, and I would agree, is that government accountability is not treated with the same discretion of accountability that the public citizen is. Take the current topic at hand, where government employees were responsible for a few thousand counts of illegal firearms acquisition and illegal trafficking. If I or anybody else here did that with one firearm we would be kissing our freedom goodbye once convicted. Granted, Holder and his minions are still presumed innocent until proven guilty, but how much do you want to bet that if he and/or anyone else is found guilty of those charges, will not be put in prison, but rather, will probably be asked to resign, or be reassigned to another government office? Take your time - the current administration will stonewall this as long as they can.

In God We Trust, In Government We Don't.

Originally Posted by dmancornell

cheap government money was the primary reason the financial firms allowed themselves to take unusually risky investments

Do you blame God for Adam taking the Apple ? Or perhaps cheap government money forced Goldman to sell securities to its clients while also betting against them ?

Cops killing civilians, just go look at the Jose Guerena and John Williams cases, or this video: Utah SWAT team shoot and kill unarmed man during 2010 drug raid - YouTube, all of which was somehow ruled justified.

So you bring up a few controversial cases to establish a pattern ? I thought there was a government investigation (I assumed feds) that analyzed majority of cases and came to such conclusion. Do you imply there is a conspiracy between municipal, state and federal governments ?

In regards to the M16A1 rifle and the government's role in possibly hundreds of soldier deaths in Vietnam, this book talks extensively about the government's continuous stonewalling and eventual blaming of Colt (in a report, of course), for its own malfeasance: http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chiver...5715639&sr=8-1

This is outside the scope of questions posted earlier.

If you want to talk specifically about Gunrunner, your first post says Holder testifying is "normal". Indeed it is, but you seem to expect him to actually speak honestly about the topic at hand. I'm saying he won't and he will continue to lie and stonewall because that is the nature of government. Feel free to post your reasons why you still trust a word that man says.

It is a human nature to lie to protect one's ***, so no, if he is responsible, he is not likely to tell the truth. However it is the purpose of investigation to establish the truth regardless of the obstacles created by the party being investigated.

Originally Posted by optiontrigger

Actually, I think what he's saying, and I would agree, is that government accountability is not treated with the same discretion of accountability that the public citizen is. Take the current topic at hand, where government employees were responsible for a few thousand counts of illegal firearms acquisition and illegal trafficking. If I or anybody else here did that with one firearm we would be kissing our freedom goodbye once convicted. Granted, Holder and his minions are still presumed innocent until proven guilty, but how much do you want to bet that if he and/or anyone else is found guilty of those charges, will not be put in prison, but rather, will probably be asked to resign, or be reassigned to another government office? Take your time - the current administration will stonewall this as long as they can.

There are two separate matters: finding the truth, and punishing the responsible. My disagreement is largely about the first one. As for the second, it's our own fault.
But also I don't agree with you on current administration being somehow different from any other. I have mentioned before - previous administration also ran guns to Mexico, and it should be easier to prosecute them now since they're not in office. But for the current one... investigation is ongoing, let's talk when it's over

Again, I'm not saying one administration is better than the other and relativism is getting pretty strong in these discussions. During the Savings and Loan fiasco, people went to prison. Nobody in this latest crisis is seeing any prison time, and it's sunk our economy as well as adversely affected the whole world. But that's a different issue. The discussions we're having are informative for either side of the fence but we should stay on topic and create a separate thread for indiscretions by past administrations.

Originally Posted by fd15k

Do you blame God for Adam taking the Apple ? Or perhaps cheap government money forced Goldman to sell securities to its clients while also betting against them ?

I don't believe in fairy tales. GS is indistinguishable from the US Dept of the Treasury. The cheap money had nothing to do with firms playing two opposing bets, covering the odds is not a crime and neither is greed. What is criminal is using taxpayer money to deliberately create bubbles to satisfy political goals (in this case, home ownership).

So you bring up a few controversial cases to establish a pattern ? I thought there was a government investigation (I assumed feds) that analyzed majority of cases and came to such conclusion. Do you imply there is a conspiracy between municipal, state and federal governments ?

Interestingly, the DOJ actually started an investigation of Seattle PD for police brutality. Unfortunately, nothing overt came of it. I suspect the feds struck a deal with the local PD to enforce federal drug laws in return for dropping DOJ pressure. Quid pro quo, as usual. The feds did the same with California (enforce drug laws for highway funds).

If you're confused about why I brought up a local matter, government is government, whether local or federal. I linked an article a while back (which you refused to read) regarding the concept of a "ruling class" who believe in the same tenets of state supremacy and require no overt conspiracy to work towards the same goals. You can say the evangelicals operate in the same manner in regards to school prayer and the teaching of evolution. In this case, if both the police and judges believe they have a right to brutalize the citizenry, then no active conspiracy is required to tag every shooting "justified", the result is guaranteed as a matter of fact.

It is a human nature to lie to protect one's ***, so no, if he is responsible, he is not likely to tell the truth. However it is the purpose of investigation to establish the truth regardless of the obstacles created by the party being investigated.

Going by the same idea of a mutually supporting "ruling class", Holder can perjure and lie and he will be protected by his fellow statists running the investigation. The truth is irrelevant to the government, the only thing that matters to them is upholding their hegemony and the idea that the government can do no wrong. The book I linked to on the M16A1 debacle is a textbook example of that behavior.

If you're looking for the truth, you'd be better off listening to the whistleblowers which the DOJ have been working feverishly to suppress. The "forum experts" which you casually deride are closer to the truth than Holder's own testimony, because Holder is a compulsive liar and murderer-by-proxy.

Originally Posted by dmancornell

...

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. Apologies for wasting your time.

^

Ditto, and no doubt when Holder is absolved you will be satisfied it was the just verdict resulting from a truthful investigation.

So Holder's going to testify......yay.

It doesn't matter. Doesn't mean a thing. Nothing will happen. Another bureaucrat sitting in Kongress spewing hot air and lies. Several hundred other bureaucrats and gov-welfare employees blowing hot air back. Thousands of taxpayer dollars spent. What will this resolve? NOTHING.

Nothing will happen. Nobody actually responsible for any of this will have to answer for it. Nobody really involved will go to jail. Big show, no results.

Should we be surprised? No. True America died a long time ago. To think any justice will be done is to be deluded. Why even bother?

We live in a communist dictatorship. I quit trying to convince myself otherwise a couple of years ago. The sad thing is, we will all let them do it. They'll blow hot air on the evening news, we'll all watch, and liberty will continue to die. Everyone will go on about their business the next morning, the republic a little weaker.

This is a pointless waste of time. Writing and calling your congressman/woman is waste of time. Voting is a waste of time. Putting any confidence in the American system is a waste of time. The only thing left to do is pray that death comes quickly and we don't feel too much of a temperature change as they increase the heat for the boiling water.

To those that would say this post is all doom and gloom......you're right. The US government is blatantly committing crimes and constitutional violations right in front of our eyes all day long. (And there's nothing you can do about it). With the signing of the NDAA last weekend, we saw the complete death of the bill of rights and the meaning of being an American.

It's officially over.

You guys are scaring me.

Duh...If you think you can trust the government, ask an Indian.

Originally Posted by fd15k

It is a human nature to lie to protect one's ***, so no, if he is responsible, he is not likely to tell the truth. However it is the purpose of investigation to establish the truth regardless of the obstacles created by the party being investigated.

The man is the Attorney General of the United States of America. The ultimate "law of the land" enforcer.
So please pardon me if I hold him to a higher standard than the average crack-head defendant.
Human nature for cryin' out loud? You guys on the left love to see the truth obfuscated/clouded whenever possible, and profess that "tis better to let a dozen go free",... Blah, blah, blah
When reality is, that he's already been caught lying under oath. Clinton did the same and was impeached for it.
NEWSFLASH: IT wasn't the sexual encounter(s) he was impeached for, it was the lying under oath.
And in eric holder's case, you want to (again) excuse that.
Puhh-leeze!

Originally Posted by fd15k

But also I don't agree with you on current administration being somehow different from any other. I have mentioned before - previous administration also ran guns to Mexico, and it should be easier to prosecute them now since they're not in office. <snip>

Bush's operation didn't involve thousands of gun, and people were actually arrested for their crimes under "Wide receiver."
Bush's notified Mexican police and State Dept. officials and coordinated with them to track the guns across the border.
Bush's was genuinely designed to catch those "strawmen buyers" that may have been supplying guns to the cartels.
Any guns lost under Bush's program were legitimately lost by accident once they crossed the border, or by corrupt Mexican police/military.

That is NOT the case with Fast and Furious. It was perpetrated independent of the Mexican government, and against the advice of the BATFE people in the field. The field agents were instructed NOT to track/follow the guns.
The two cases/operations are as different as night and day in how they were conducted, and as a result, what was/is at stake.

CBS news has shown the evidence that Fast and Furious was designed to support claims by the admin and the state department that legally purchased American guns were finding their way into the cartel's hands in large numbers.
It was intended to be used for justification of a crackdown on legal sales THIS side of the border. To subvert the 2ndA.

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

This link has been posted NUMEROUS time on this forum, in threads YOU have participated in.
If you refuse to read it you are being willfully ignorant.

Furthermore, holder and the DOJ have fired one of the whistle blowers!
Traditional liberals wrote and fought for the law(s) that protect them, and for that I can respect them. But when progressives step up and REFUSE to see the injustice that this (supposed) DoJ has perpetrated to:
A) Subvert the 2ndA.
B) Put American citizens and law enforcement at risk.
C) Put Mexican citizens and law enforcement at risk, with hundreds killed.
D) Cover their collective butts by lying to, and stonewalling Congress in their attempts to find the truth.
E) Punish whistle blowers, ignoring laws that their predecessors wrote to protect those that tell the truth.
They lose ANY credibility with regard to being impartial in the face of justice.
Have failed to uphold the very pretense of the laws they were hired to see enforced.
And foresworn the oath they took to uphold The Constitution.

And while we're discussing this, why are you so quick to include Bush's name under recriminations for operation "Wide Receiver," but yet you progressives insist on obama being insulated from ramifications over "Fast and Furious?"

And you have the audacity to come out and say "it's human nature" to lie under oath, as if it's okay, when applied to obama's AG?

So, again, if you are willing to turn your back on justice for the sake of political expedience and/or gain, then you have no credibility in these discussions.

Again, go buy yourself a clue.