Thread: Gifting firearms... Legal issues?

I have a two questions that are pretty similar, but might be *different enough* to have two different answers.

Question 1:
I have high (but maybe unrealistic) hopes of a gun for Christmas from my wife. Is it legal for her to buy a gun and then give it to me for Christmas? Do we need to perform a face to face transaction for $1 or something with a bill of sale to keep things legit?

Question 2:
I want to give my 14 year old son a Ruger 10/22* for Christmas. Of course, it's to be kept in my safe unless I take him out shooting. Is there anything I can do to make it legally his, or does it need to remain legally mine until he's 18?

Thanks!

*The 10/22 will be configured as a liberty training rifle, with this stock and a set of tech sights.

When I buy things in private sales, unless the seller wants me to I don't bother with keeping a bill of sale or anything. The only time when gifting requires you to do anything with the gov't is with NFA items because you need to pay another $200 whenever you transfer it to a new person.

Oh, also, I am not sure if someone younger than 18 can legally own a firearm. It doesn't matter though because he'll probably be living in your house until he's older than 18 anyway. :P

You do not have to do anything to change legal ownership. Actually I'm not even sure if it is possible... have an FFL do a transfer maybe? But why would anyone want to do that? ¯\(°_o)/¯

tl;dr: gift away, no worries, nothing you have to fill out either.

Thanks Spengo!

Does the purchaser have to note that it's a gift at the time of purchase (the 10/22 will come from Bi-Mart)?

Originally Posted by C&H

Thanks Spengo!

Does the purchaser have to note that it's a gift at the time of purchase (the 10/22 will come from Bi-Mart)?

Nope. As long as aren't straw-purchasing for people not allowed to have guns (felons) you are good to go.

'Ownership' is restricted to 21 for a handgun, and 18 for a long gun.

In Oregon, shooters not of legal age, must be under Adult supervision.

There's no 'registration' in Oregon. But if your wife buys a gun from a dealer, she will need to pass the back-round check. Then she can 'gift' you the gun, provided you are not a felon restricted to firearms ownership. If you were, and she did, that would then be a 'straw sale' and very illegal!

The same applies to your son. When he turns 18, the rifle can be 'gifted' to him, provided his right to own firearms has not been restricted.

This is the way I read the info from Oregon Firearms Federation.
Frog.

Originally Posted by C&H

Thanks Spengo!

Does the purchaser have to note that it's a gift at the time of purchase (the 10/22 will come from Bi-Mart)?

I highly recommend you don't mention it's a gift for someone else, especially after you check that little "The firearm is for me and only me" box.

Originally Posted by Frog

'Ownership' is restricted to 21 for a handgun, and 18 for a long gun.

18 to own a handgun too. 21 to buy from an FFL. You can be gifted a handgun or purchase one in a private sale at 18.

Anyway, for the 10/22 it will be *technically* yours until he's 18 but whatever, same difference. Unless he gets a job and moves out when he's 17 or something lol.

Originally Posted by Tactical SS

I highly recommend you don't mention it's a gift for someone else, especially after you check that little "The firearm is for me and only me" box.

Why not? The question is "are you the actual buyer?" since you are the actual buyer the answer is YES. No matter what you plan on doing with the gun after the purchase if you are the buyer the answer is yes.

Now if the OP's wife gives him $500 to go buy her a gun then the answer would be "NO" as she would be the actual buyer so it would be considered a straw sale.

Originally Posted by Nwcid

Now if the OP's wife gives him $500 to go buy her a gun then the answer would be "NO" as she would be the actual buyer so it would be considered a straw sale.

If my wife gave me $500 to buy her a gun, we'd have problems other than the BATFE, like **** freezing over, and flying pigs knocking planes out of the sky

Originally Posted by C&H

If my wife gave me $500 to buy her a gun, we'd have problems other than the BATFE, like **** freezing over, and flying pigs knocking planes out of the sky

Hah! Yup, same here.
Me: Hey honey! Gimmie your Christmas bonus & instead of that new water heater we need, I'll buy myself you a gun you'll totally love! I.. er.. we...er You REALLY need an AK or a Mini-14!
Her: (preparing to smack me with any nearby heavy object...)
...though I did buy her a cool, inexpensive nickle-finished 70's revolver for Christmas... which I of course had to test out with a couple hundred rounds

Originally Posted by Nwcid

Why not? The question is "are you the actual buyer?" since you are the actual buyer the answer is YES. No matter what you plan on doing with the gun after the purchase if you are the buyer the answer is yes.

The above is true. The question is about the purchaser, not whom it's for. (although they can't be a felon or anyone else not "allowed" to possess a firearm)
Five years ago I bought a Henry 22 for my mom. The store I bought it from knew it was being purchased for a gift and thought it was very cool that I was buying my mom a rifle for her birthday.
That was the third gun I'd purchased new to give as a gift. Every time the store selling it to me knew that, too.

Printed right on EVERY 4473,

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.


http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

There is no restriction that the gift be for a family member or a friend, it can be a gift for anyone. If I was rich enough and wanted to give away 10 new guns on this board to random people I could legally go down and buy 10 guns and give them to whoever. I could even pick the winners, let them choose the gun, then go pick it up and give it away. It would be in my best interests to make sure that whoever I give them to can legally own them.


.

Originally Posted by Nwcid

Printed right on EVERY 4473,

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.


http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

There is no restriction that the gift be for a family member or a friend, it can be a gift for anyone. If I was rich enough and wanted to give away 10 new guns on this board to random people I could legally go down and buy 10 guns and give them to whoever. I could even pick the winners, let them choose the gun, then go pick it up and give it away. It would be in my best interests to make sure that whoever I give them to can legally own them.


.

All well and true, but depending on the dealer you go do, you MAY run into issues if they find out it is a gift. If it's a dealer you use often and have good relationship with, then you'll likely have no issues. But if it's your local Big-Box sporting shop (Bi-Mart, WalMart, Big 5, Cabela's), you can run into people less willing to sell you the gun. A couple of years ago, my dad bought my brother and I each matching Remington 700s (as an incentive to get our butts back home to hunt with him). Between the fact he was buying two rifles at once and happened to mention in conversation with the salesman that they were Christmas gifts, he had to play h*ll with the clerk to get him to actually sell him the rifles (including pointing out the exact information on the 4473).

The way I see it, unless you are on a first name basis with the person you are buying it from, best to only provide them with exactly as much information as you are required to. No need to be rude, but no need to tell them about your crazy Aunt Betty or the great-grandfather that turned out to be a mafia hitman either.

Lastly - excellent ideas for gifts! I can still remember unwrapping my 10/22 on Christmas morning...and having about 100 rounds through it before dark the same day! I will never get rid of that rifle.

Last year was a big Christmas.

ARs for the whole family.

Since I know none of them has any issues, it wasn't a straw purchase.

This year, Christmas isn't so big. Had to get some floors replaced, so that was my/my wife's gift this year.

Planning on doing Glocks for birthdays at some point in the near future.

With the fact that I own NFA, and that I have a clearance, I'd never risk that stuff to conduct a straw purchase, no matter who it was.

Originally Posted by Dell_dude

Last year was a big Christmas.

ARs for the whole family.

Since I know none of them has any issues, it wasn't a straw purchase.

This year, Christmas isn't so big. Had to get some floors replaced, so that was my/my wife's gift this year.

Planning on doing Glocks for birthdays at some point in the near future.

With the fact that I own NFA, and that I have a clearance, I'd never risk that stuff to conduct a straw purchase, no matter who it was.

Straw has noting to do with if another person is legal or not. If you take money (payment/trade/ect) from another person to buy for them, even if they are 100% legal to own a gun that IS a straw sale.

If you are not the "actual buyer", your money for a gun you are buying then it is a straw. If you saw a gun at the shop you wanted, then your wife told you she was running to town and you gave her the money and told her to pick the gun up for you (a legal buyer) that IS a straw.

Originally Posted by Nwcid

Straw has noting to do with if another person is legal or not. If you take money (payment/trade/ect) from another person to buy for them, even if they are 100% legal to own a gun that IS a straw sale.

I disagree.

The definition I've read that seems to make sense is:

A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves.

Originally Posted by Dell_dude

I disagree.

The definition I've read that seems to make sense is:

Printed right on EVERY 4473,

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.


http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdfPrinted right on EVERY 4473,

Meh.

I've heard of it being done between close friends.

As long as the person receiving it isn't prohibited, I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

If you just change the scenario to Guy A buys gun at gunshow with his own $, then Guy B buys gun from Guy A with his own $, the gun basically takes the same path, but due to two distinct purchases, it's clear.

Originally Posted by Dell_dude

Meh.

I've heard of it being done between close friends.

As long as the person receiving it isn't prohibited, I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

If you just change the scenario to Guy A buys gun at gunshow with his own $, then Guy B buys gun from Guy A with his own $, the gun basically takes the same path, but due to two distinct purchases, it's clear.

I completely agree with you.

Just saying that is not what the law says.