Teflon ammo is illegal in Oregon?

**Benny503** · 12-13-2009, 01:32 AM

I ran into a few guy at Dutch Bros and they told me that they carry teflon ammos for personal defense. I haven't see what was the ammo look like or I haven't hold it in my hand yet.... all I know is hearing about from the coffee shop and hollywood's life. I thought teflon bullet was designed specifically to defeat soft body armor and it's illegal to own. Is this true in OR that you can't own (possess) teflon ammo? TIA

**MacBookProAR** · 12-13-2009, 01:39 AM

Here is the ORS - looks like you would have to be using it with criminal intent to have it be illegal, but that seems sort of redundant to me.

My employer doesn't say that I can't go streaking around the office, but that doesn't mean if I do it that it is legal. I'm convinced that law writers are idiots.
166.350¹
Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition
(1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition if the person:
(a) Makes, sells, buys or possesses any handgun ammunition the bullet or projectile of which is coated with Teflon or any chemical compound with properties similar to Teflon and which is intended to penetrate soft body armor, such person having the intent that the ammunition be used in the commission of a felony; or
(b) Carries any ammunition described in paragraph (a) of this subsection while committing any felony during which the person or any accomplice of the person is armed with a firearm.
(2) As used in this section, "handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols or revolvers notwithstanding that the ammunition can be used in some rifles.
(3) Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition is a Class A misdemeanor. [1985 c.755 §2; 1987 c.158 §29]

**PhysicsGuy** · 12-13-2009, 01:39 AM

Here is the related ORS;

166.350 Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition if the person:

(a) Makes, sells, buys or possesses any handgun ammunition the bullet or projectile of which is coated with Teflon or any chemical compound with properties similar to Teflon and which is intended to penetrate soft body armor, such person having the intent that the ammunition be used in the commission of a felony; or

(b) Carries any ammunition described in paragraph (a) of this subsection while committing any felony during which the person or any accomplice of the person is armed with a firearm.

(2) As used in this section, “handgun ammunition” means ammunition principally for use in pistols or revolvers notwithstanding that the ammunition can be used in some rifles.

(3) Unlawful possession of armor piercing ammunition is a Class A misdemeanor. [1985 c.755 §2; 1987 c.158 §29]

ETA looks like I got beat to it

**JAFO** · 12-13-2009, 01:41 AM

**PhysicsGuy** · 12-13-2009, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by JAFO

I give up.

On?

**Benny503** · 12-13-2009, 01:47 AM

How would I know teflon ammo look like? If I go to one of the old folk gargage sale and found a box of ammo with really good price and decide to test fire it. Its seem very accurate in my gun and just happen that I will use it for personal use and came to find out I was carrying teflon ammo... a felony for my side? :-(

**JAFO** · 12-13-2009, 02:05 AM

It's a misdemeanor if you are committing a felony while you possess it or intend that it be used in a felony.

Regardless of the legality, it is probably not wise to carry. Imagine in court a prosecutor letting the jury know your gun was filled with "cop killer bullets."

**the4thshake** · 12-13-2009, 04:11 AM

Let me first say that this law is idiotic at best.

Teflon or any other dry lubrication (molybdenum) does not make a bullet armor piercing. It is done to reduce barrel friction (wear and fouling).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_coated_bullet

**zeezee** · 12-13-2009, 08:31 AM

From what I understand, the teflon they are refering to is not the lubricant but the coating that the projectile is encased in. Yes, it will act like a lubricant but the purpose is to allow it to defeat a kevlar vest worn by most police officers. Of course this "cop killing" bullet is useless against ceramic plates as are many other forms of munitions.

**TonsOfOregonBrass** · 12-13-2009, 08:48 AM

I personally would not carry teflon coated ammo. Even though it isn't going to help with body armor. If you used it in self defense the civil lawyers will be handing you a new one. Pretty easy to make an argument that the ammo caused more damage then what was needed to stop the threat. Just my .02

**elsie** · 12-13-2009, 08:55 AM

Not that Wikipedia is the best source, but it usually has a grain of truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_bullet

I remember when the first study came out and watched how the media twisted the purpose from "improved windshield penetration" to "improved penetration of police vests". It was ironic in that the fact police wore vests wasn't common knowledge (and I have a fuzzy memory that there was an NRA program to provide police departments with vests - I could be mis-remembering though) and some people posited that the media/political outcry against these cartridges could cost some officers their lives as criminals looked for methods to defeat the vests that they now knew about. The joys of the law of unintended consequences.

elsie

**zeezee** · 12-13-2009, 09:10 AM

"The availability of guns compounds the problem, criminologists say. But Pennsylvania, the state with the most gun-related officer deaths so far this year, has among the strictest gun laws in the country, according to a ranking by the pro-gun-control Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Other states, like Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kentucky, have very little oversight and had few, if any, officer gun deaths this year."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

If someone is going to kill another member of the human race he or she need not go out and spend a whole bunch of money on special munitions, he or she just needs to be sure of the shot. That the number of police officers killed in the line of duty has increased prove this.

**The Quiet Man** · 12-13-2009, 09:37 AM

I must live in a cave because this confuses me. What is a brand named example of a "teflon bullet"? Are you referring to the old KTW bullets of the 1960's or something that is currently manufactured? Winchester's "Black Talons" that were ceremoniously pulled from dealer shelves in the 90's? Something else that is sold down at BiMart but that may be Oregon illegal based on my frame of mind? It sounds like something I'd see on CNN or ABC if I watched either of them... but then I live in a cave.

**JAFO** · 12-13-2009, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by elsie

Not that Wikipedia is the best source, but it usually has a grain of truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_bullet

I remember when the first study came out and watched how the media twisted the purpose from "improved windshield penetration" to "improved penetration of police vests". It was ironic in that the fact police wore vests wasn't common knowledge (and I have a fuzzy memory that there was an NRA program to provide police departments with vests - I could be mis-remembering though) and some people posited that the media/political outcry against these cartridges could cost some officers their lives as criminals looked for methods to defeat the vests that they now knew about. The joys of the law of unintended consequences.

elsie

Didin't CHiPs tell us this? Surely Hill Street Blues would have. Perhaps the knowledge of the rounds themselves is what any outcry was about?

Originally Posted by zeezee

"The availability of guns compounds the problem, criminologists say. But Pennsylvania, the state with the most gun-related officer deaths so far this year, has among the strictest gun laws in the country, according to a ranking by the pro-gun-control Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Other states, like Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kentucky, have very little oversight and had few, if any, officer gun deaths this year."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

If someone is going to kill another member of the human race he or she need not go out and spend a whole bunch of money on special munitions, he or she just needs to be sure of the shot. That the number of police officers killed in the line of duty has increased prove this.

The number of deaths in no way proves anyone was more or less sure of any shots.

**AGCR** · 12-13-2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by The Quiet Man

I must live in a cave because this confuses me. What is a brand named example of a "teflon bullet"? Are you referring to the old KTW bullets of the 1960's or something that is currently manufactured? Winchester's "Black Talons" that were ceremoniously pulled from dealer shelves in the 90's? Something else that is sold down at BiMart but that may be Oregon illegal based on my frame of mind? It sounds like something I'd see on CNN or ABC if I watched either of them... but then I live in a cave.

Yeah, I'm confused by this as well. I know in the early 20th century a company named Western sold what they called "metal piercing" bullets which would be illegal now and even then probably tore the **** out of your barrel. Unless you actually have a sold brass slug, as in the old KTWs, I'm not aware there would be any need to coat them in teflon. Perhaps some manufacturers are playing on the misinformation to give the impression their ammo is extra lethal. Years ago a friend furtively passed me a loose handful of rounds he claimed were "copkillers" but on close inspection were just hollowpoints.

**zeezee** · 12-13-2009, 05:50 PM

They <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_bullet> categorize the teflon coated bullet with armor piercing? Not too sure if a teflon coated hand gun cartridge could ever be turned into something that would pierce armor? But what gets me, why should any munitions be illegal for a United States citizen to own . . . Unless our government knew there would be a time when it's citizens would turn it on them? Hmmmm........
Hope that's not too politically incorrect, I tend to speak my mind.

**willseeker** · 12-13-2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by TonsOfOregonBrass

If you used it in self defense the civil lawyers will be handing you a new one.

I was recently looking at buying some Black Talons, but what T of OB says is 100% correct.

I will be researching what LE uses and buy those.

In a court of law, if I have to defend the use of lethal force, I want the jury to understand that I was using what they use, nothing more, nothing less.

**56kninja** · 12-13-2009, 06:05 PM

I thought Teflon Coated was restrict to Class III anyways. Might just be for the 5-7.

**AGCR** · 12-13-2009, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by 56kninja

I thought Teflon Coated was restrict to Class III anyways. Might just be for the 5-7.

Yeah, what's up with the 5-7? I've seen pictures of it's fierce looking bottleneck cartridges. They certainly LOOK like they might go through a vest with just an ordinary FMJ.

**Gunner3456** · 12-13-2009, 07:19 PM

I don't know about teflon coated bullets either. New one on me.

+1 for not buying or using Black Talons. Sorry for the lack of a link, but I recently read an article which showed (by tests) that it's outdated anyway. Several more modern bullets penetrated, expanded, and retained weight better anyway but they don't have the bad press. I think maybe the Black Talon was just the first of the breed.

$.02