Thread: Working on guns that are NOT your own?

I'm NOT a gun smith but I love to fix & modify guns.
I would love to do some of this work for my friends & family, but I want to stay legal.
What is OK & what is NOT?
THANK YOU!!!

I'm no attorney,but I would think if you don't deface the serial number and you don't charge money,go for it.

So do you have any good recipes?

"Don't deface the serial number and don't charge money"

This is pretty much what I have been told. I don't feel right charging friends & family any way.

I have also been told if I work on a gun belonging to another party, the owner of that gun needs to be there when I do the repairs or mods. (this just does not seem practical)

Originally Posted by Izzy

I'm NOT a gun smith but I love to fix & modify guns.
I would love to do some of this work for my friends & family, but I want to stay legal.
What is OK & what is NOT?
THANK YOU!!!

I doubt it would be an issue.

If you are wanting to expand to have customers, then you are supposed to get a Type 07 Manufacturing FFL to do gunsmithing.

If it is free for friends and family, I doubt you will have any problems.

"Opening a can of worms"

What about selling a gun I have done mods on?

Originally Posted by Trlsmn

So do you have any good recipes?

I'd think that you of all people know that cast iron's almost a necessity for this type of cuisine - and that's clearly a spun steel wok, probably stainless.

As long as its done in a once in awhile basis, and the money made is not a significant part of your overall income, its ok.

There's no state/federal standards for gunsmiths that I know of...if so please enlighten me. In other words, one doesn't need a certificate or the like to do the work.

Originally Posted by Izzy

"Opening a can of worms"

What about selling a gun I have done mods on?

You can sell your personal guns that you modded.

People mod AR-15s all the time and sell them when they get bored with it or need cash for rent.

If you are doing it as a business, it would be illegal without a license.

Originally Posted by wichaka

There's no state/federal standards for gunsmiths that I know of...if so please enlighten me. In other words, one doesn't need a certificate or the like to do the work.

Gunsmiths doing business for profit need an FFL.

Originally Posted by Izzy

I'm NOT a gun smith but I love to fix & modify guns.
I would love to do some of this work for my friends & family, but I want to stay legal.
What is OK & what is NOT?
THANK YOU!!!

Should be fine, given that you aren't accepting class 3 weapons, charging, and don't modify the gun to make it illegal, which includes turning it into a class 3 weapon, removing serial number, ect.

Oh, and make sure they are legal to own a gun. So if you have a family you member that you know is an ex felon, and asks you to fix his glock, don't do it.

As long as it done on an 'occasional' basis, and not a significant income, one does not need a FFL, which is stated in the Federal Firearms reference Guide 2005.

What is the ATF definition of 'occasional' and 'significant' is a toss of the dice. I've been doing it for years this way, have been checked by ATF, and so far all is good to go.

Hmmm, no mention or warnings about liability??

Curious indeed.

Normal liability rules apply. If OP works on a gun and it later blows up or discharges unexpectedly, he'll probably get sued. Presumably this will encourage him not to do anything negligent while working and/or to find some insurance that covers his activities. Just like if he was fixing his friends' lawnmowers or cars or motorbikes or anything else that's (metaphorically speaking) sharp and pointy.

Or almost any activity at all, really. If OP made dolls for the neighborhood children, he might accidentally leave a sharp needle in one of them and maim somebody.

Also something to consider, friends and family, but are you getting them face to face? would they be shipping them from across the state or out of state?

If your doing a trigger job on a handgun, can your friend ship it to you?

I talked to ATF Seattle today about this. Kind of a fine line.

If you are doing it for friends and family and not as a source of income, you are OK.

They sent me some PDF rulings on this also. I don't know how to post them. (If anyone can tell me how to post an Adobe Acrobat PDF here that would help)

In a nutshell, they aren't worried about regulating "hobbies".

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2005

On page 37 under 478.1 under Subpart B (definitions) 478.11 Federal Firearms Regulations;

(d) Gunsmith "A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engage in such activity as a regular course of trade or business, with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms."
__________________________________________________ ___________

Now we go to page 185 under 478.41 (I) GUNSMITHS

(I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing, or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the "definition" of a dealer.
__________________________________________________ ___________

But as the first point states, one is not considered a "gunsmith" by definition, if it is done on an occasional basis.

So toss your dice folks. I have tossed mine, and so far no problems.

Thanks every body!

Originally Posted by wichaka

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2005

On page 37 under 478.1 under Subpart B (definitions) 478.11 Federal Firearms Regulations;

(d) Gunsmith "A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engage in such activity as a regular course of trade or business, with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms."
__________________________________________________ ___________

Now we go to page 185 under 478.41 (I) GUNSMITHS

(I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing, or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the "definition" of a dealer.
__________________________________________________ ___________

But as the first point states, one is not considered a "gunsmith" by definition, if it is done on an occasional basis.

So toss your dice folks. I have tossed mine, and so far no problems.

You probably never will have an issue.
The PDFs I have are clarifications on those. There have been many people asking ATF about defining what is, or is not allowed. Licensees, and non-licensees.
I found it interesting that people applying Dura-Coat, annodizing, or parkerizing, for income need an 07 Manufacturing FFL.

I agree with ZachS. Using any thing other than cast iron could have serious repercussions. I believe as long as a light beer batter is used, and care is taken not to burn Gus, no law enforcement will be involved.