Thread: How does this happen?? FFL holders please read

I hope this is posted in the right area...

Anyway, last week I get a call from a Detective in the county south of where I live and asks me do I own a Ruger "XXXX" model rifle, or have I ever owned one. I tell him no, I have never bought that model rifle, or owned one. He tells me that after a search warrant had been served on a house his department found a lot of stolen property and firearms. I said " Ok, what the **** does this have to do with me?" The dectective said he ran an BATF trace on this Ruger "XXXX" model rifle and it came back that I was the original buyer at "XXXX" gunshop on such and such day. He had my name, birthdate, address, and knew I had a concealed carry permit.
After thinking about the purchase date and the gunshop, I realize I had bought a Ruger "XXXX" PISTOL on that very day!!! The two guns could not have been mistaken for one another: One Rifle 5.56 Cal, One pistol 22LR Cal.
Two sum this up it looks like the gunshop swapped serial numbers of the two guns on the paperwork.

Has anyone heard of this happening before??

Sorry for the "XXXX" but the case has been handed over to the BATF as of now.

I bought a 7mag Weatherby Vanguard from Wal-Mart one time and after I had it for a few weeks I get a call "Could you please bring the rifle back we have a discrepancy in our records and need to visually recheck all the serial numbers of the Vanguards we sold that week." PITA because I lived 30 miles out but they gave me a $25 gift card.

Who knows where the swap of numbers or name took place. I imagine they will trace it down with your help. Might even be in thier computer system.

Too much to type................Yes, this has happened before.
Something is dreadfully wrong somewhere.

You can call me if you need to. My contact info is in the link below.

So as I am reading your post and the hair is standing up on the back of my neck I am thinking in Oregon when you are buying a firearm and the FFL calls into the OSP to check if you are clear to purchase, they are not supposed to keep any records. Now come to think of it they always give an authorization no# which implies they have kept a copy of the transaction for future reference. I don't know about Wa. statute but I thought in Or. records were not kept(yeah right)
Sooo, did the FFL screw up, did someone steal your identity? But why does the Detective have your info??????????????? I agree this doesn't pass the smell test.

Yeah, I don't know how this is going to play out. It might of been a simple mistake, but the detective said the rifle was like new in the factory box when it was recovered. I am waiting the the BATF to contact me and give them the serial number of the pistol that I purchased from the shop. In any event.... very strange

The way I see it.... It would have to be the FFL that screwed this up. The only reason the detective contacted me was because if the rifle was stolen and not reported, he was trying to get it back to the owner. Thats a lot of work for just one rifle in a house full of stolen stuff....

good thing nothing really bad happen. But still suck you have to go deal with the problems.

hope everything sort it out.

How and ATF trace works:

ATF gets called by a PD because a firearm turned up in a crime.

In this case it was a Ruger. They then submit a trace request to Ruger. Ruger them tells them who the distributor was that it was sold to. The ATF then submits a trace request to the distributor. The distributor then tells the ATF what dealer they sold it to. The ATF then submits a trace request to the dealer who goes through his 4473's and provides the purchasers info. Usually the ATF wants a copy of the whole 4473.
The ATF these passes this info back to the police.

The OSP keep records of firearms sold in the last 5 years. So a local PD may well approach them first to see if it was sold here.

Originally Posted by Tornado-Technologies

How and ATF trace works:

ATF gets called by a PD because a firearm turned up in a crime.

In this case it was a Ruger. They then submit a trace request to Ruger. Ruger them tells them who the distributor was that it was sold to. The ATF then submits a trace request to the distributor. The distributor then tells the ATF what dealer they sold it to. The ATF then submits a trace request to the dealer who goes through his 4473's and provides the purchasers info. Usually the ATF wants a copy of the whole 4473.
The ATF these passes this info back to the police.

The OSP keep records of firearms sold in the last 5 years. So a local PD may well approach them first to see if it was sold here.

This is how I understand the process as well but with one addition. The final dealer (FFL) does not have to share the info with LE without a warrant. Most would though.

Originally Posted by DootyBeet

This is how I understand the process as well but with one addition. The final dealer (FFL) does not have to share the info with LE without a warrant. Most would though.

I believe we (dealers) are required to supply the info for LE without a warrant. Anytime, day or night.

As I understand it, that is one of the crucial functions of FFLs.

I'm not a lawyer, so I don't really know.

Originally Posted by DootyBeet

This is how I understand the process as well but with one addition. The final dealer (FFL) does not have to share the info with LE without a warrant. Most would though.

A search warrant is not required to obtain gun owner info from a dealer. The Dealer will not want the ATF breathing down his neck.

I don't think the LE Dectective contacted the FFL at all, He stated that he just ran a ATF trace on the serial number of the recovered rifle. I am really hoping that this was just a fluke paper work mistake because both guns were purchased on the same day and they were both Rugers. If not and it was to sell a gun "out the back" then the FFL is going to be in a S@#T storm of trouble! I have purchased around 8 firearms from them in the past 7 years or so, and they are a very popular gunshop that is always busy. Now I am just wondering who's name is the pistol that I bought come up as???

I had a hair raising thought unrelated to DrDave's situation..

What is to keep an unscrupulous dealer from stacking on a gun/rifle to a legitimate customers 4473 form background check unbeknown to the customer who is purchasing one gun and then the dealer who now has it off his books sells it out the backdoor FTF?

No warrant is require for an ATF trace request. FFL's are required by law to provide the info.

Originally Posted by Trlsmn

I had a hair raising thought unrelated to DrDave's situation..

What is to keep an unscrupulous dealer from stacking on a gun/rifle to a legitimate customers 4473 form background check unbeknown to the customer who is purchasing one gun and then the dealer who now has it off his books sells it out the backdoor FTF?

Wow. Never thought of that one. One more reason I'll continue to do all my transactions private FTF sale.

Always check the form before you sign it. The new forms ask you how many items are involved in the transfer (question 30a). Make sure this matches how many you are purchasing. Out of habit, we usually cross out the extra lines in section D preventing new items from being added.

Originally Posted by Tornado-Technologies

Always check the form before you sign it. The new forms ask you how many items are involved in the transfer (question 30a). Make sure this matches how many you are purchasing. Out of habit, we usually cross out the extra lines in section D preventing new items from being added.

next time i buy from a FFL i will have them do that. thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by Tornado-Technologies

Always check the form before you sign it. The new forms ask you how many items are involved in the transfer (question 30a). Make sure this matches how many you are purchasing. Out of habit, we usually cross out the extra lines in section D preventing new items from being added.

I nominate that for post of the year! or at least make it its own thread and make it a sticky

Originally Posted by python287

A search warrant is not required to obtain gun owner info from a dealer. The Dealer will not want the ATF breathing down his neck.

This statement kinda makes me fearful. FFL holders shouldn't have to be scared of the bubblegums Taxing Firearms breathing down their neck because they don't provide something without a warrant! I would think that type of information would be protected unless it was OFFICIALLY requested by means of a warrant. I don't know how it works coctailer, but do they give you some sort of authorization number for a particular agent when the AFT calls to request this info? Or could it be private citizen Schmucatelli trying to get personal info, knowing you have to give it up whether you like it or not?