Thread: How does this happen?? FFL holders please read

To initiate a trace the LE agency must file a ATF F 3312.1. The trace can only be initiated in response to a crime being committed

www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3312-1.pdf.

Any time I get someone calling from the ATF or any LE agency requesting info, unless it's a number that I recognize and they're not asking for privileged info I always ask for a number to call them back on that's a listed field office or switchboard number.

It used to be that you knew you were good if a special agent called you, because you get 000-000-0000 coming up on the called ID, but with call spoofing technology these days, one needs to be more careful.

Our official number of record for the ATF to contact us is also not a publicly listed number.

Originally Posted by iusmc2002

This statement kinda makes me fearful. FFL holders shouldn't have to be scared of the bubblegums Taxing Firearms breathing down their neck because they don't provide something without a warrant! I would think that type of information would be protected unless it was OFFICIALLY requested by means of a warrant. I don't know how it works coctailer, but do they give you some sort of authorization number for a particular agent when the AFT calls to request this info? Or could it be private citizen Schmucatelli trying to get personal info, knowing you have to give it up whether you like it or not?

Originally Posted by iusmc2002

This statement kinda makes me fearful. FFL holders shouldn't have to be scared of the bubblegums Taxing Firearms breathing down their neck because they don't provide something without a warrant! I would think that type of information would be protected unless it was OFFICIALLY requested by means of a warrant. I don't know how it works coctailer, but do they give you some sort of authorization number for a particular agent when the AFT calls to request this info? Or could it be private citizen Schmucatelli trying to get personal info, knowing you have to give it up whether you like it or not?

Me too. I'm not an FFL but have been told by one that a serach warrant would be necessary for at least him to divulge info. Can other FFL's confirm or deny this?

As far as I know, (at least in Oregon) that the only record of firearm ownership (past the 5 years with OSP background) is the last transferring FFL. (Notwithstanding private party transfers)

Originally Posted by iusmc2002

This statement kinda makes me fearful. FFL holders shouldn't have to be scared of the bubblegums Taxing Firearms breathing down their neck because they don't provide something without a warrant! I would think that type of information would be protected unless it was OFFICIALLY requested by means of a warrant. I don't know how it works coctailer, but do they give you some sort of authorization number for a particular agent when the AFT calls to request this info? Or could it be private citizen Schmucatelli trying to get personal info, knowing you have to give it up whether you like it or not?

No fear involved. It more of a "partnership"

If your wife was murdered and LE wants trace info on a firearm they found near the scene, you would WANT me to get them the info quickly.

Originally Posted by Trlsmn

I had a hair raising thought unrelated to DrDave's situation..

What is to keep an unscrupulous dealer from stacking on a gun/rifle to a legitimate customers 4473 form background check unbeknown to the customer who is purchasing one gun and then the dealer who now has it off his books sells it out the backdoor FTF?

It happens.
They get caught though.

Your dealer is completely wrong, see sections below highlighted in red.

From section § 923 Licensing. of the Gun Control Act.

(B) The Attorney General may inspect
or examine the inventory and
records of a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed
dealer without such reasonable
cause or warrant—
(i) in the course of a reasonable
inquiry during the course of a
criminal investigation of a person
18
or persons other than the licensee;
(ii) for ensuring compliance with
the record keeping requirements of
this chapter—
(I) not more than once during
any 12-month period; or
(II) at any time with respect to
records relating to a firearm involved
in a criminal investigation
that is traced to the licensee;

Originally Posted by DootyBeet

Me too. I'm not an FFL but have been told by one that a serach warrant would be necessary for at least him to divulge info. Can other FFL's confirm or deny this?

As far as I know, (at least in Oregon) that the only record of firearm ownership (past the 5 years with OSP background) is the last transferring FFL. (Notwithstanding private party transfers)

Originally Posted by DootyBeet

Me too. I'm not an FFL but have been told by one that a serach warrant would be necessary for at least him to divulge info. Can other FFL's confirm or deny this?

As far as I know, (at least in Oregon) that the only record of firearm ownership (past the 5 years with OSP background) is the last transferring FFL. (Notwithstanding private party transfers)

I only have a FFL-03 but have been doing a lot of reading and the people in the Seattle ATF office have been great about fielding questions.

4728.25a Responses to requests for information. Each licensee shall respond immediately to, and in no event later than 24 hours after the reciept of, a request by an ATF officer at the National tracing center for information contained in the records required to be kept by this part for determing the disposition of one or more firearms in the course of a bona fide crinimal investigation. The information shall be provided orally to the ATF officer within 24 hour period.

Well, turns out the FFL did NOT screw anything up. The LE detective was confusing the **** out of me along with his ignorance of firearms.
To sum it all up: the firearm found at the site of the search warrant was in fact one that I had bought and sold. The LE misrepresented the fact it was a rifle and .223/5.56 cal.

The bad part is I sold this gun in a private sale to someone who misrepresented themselves as being able to own firearms....so it looks really bad!! The plot thickens!

Originally Posted by coctailer

No fear involved. It more of a "partnership"

If your wife was murdered and LE wants trace info on a firearm they found near the scene, you would WANT me to get them the info quickly.

It doesn't really matter what I would WANT an FFL to do, but what was legal. The pressing need to disperse info on a crime as you suggested shouldn't conflict with anyone elses rights. Seeing some of the others posts, it apparently IS legal for LE to request your info verbally, with no type of chain of custody for said info, other than the "partnership" as you call it.

Anyway, just like the vast majority of the posts on NWFA, this one was very informative. Thanks to the FFL's and others for sharing their knowledge of this type of situation. I thought that type of info would be protected.

Good luck DrDave