Compliance with illegal police orders

[Partsproduction]

Yep, they're stuck between police-hating hippies on one side and tax-hating conservatives on the other.

Soooo,,,,,you want to give them more money so they can be more effective in violating your rights?

[Redcap]

Originally Posted by Partsproduction

Soooo,,,,,you want to give them more money so they can be more effective in violating your rights?

Great idea.


Yeah, that was sarcasm.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by Gunner3456

How about this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJpqk

Car searches can be bad news. I replaced the front seats in my car after I'd had it for a while. I'd bought it from my then-current roommate, who'd bought it from a shady 82nd Ave. lot. Between the two of us, we'd probably owned it for at least three years. When I took the old seats out, I found a large bag - probably enough to get charged with a serious felony - of crack cocaine.

My roommate and I thanked God that we were the ones who found it as we flushed it down the toilet.

[MountainBear]

Trying to come up with something to add to this conversation that is just short of being argumentative, but its difficult. Understanding that there are rotten apples in Law Enforcement, it seems like...

I don't know, but I don't agree with all the LEO bashing that goes on here sometimes. Its not so bad when someone makes a comment about a specific action by a specific LEO, but then everyone starts in on rumors and the "this is what I heard" stories. Sad. LEO's are as valuable to this country as its soldiers but get zero respect (although some deserve the ridicule).

I'm not saying its not right or that you shouldn't post your opinions, but how about some stories of the great things our LEO's do every day...

[MarkAd]

good on ya mate.

[Gunner3456]

Originally Posted by MountainBear

Trying to come up with something to add to this conversation that is just short of being argumentative, but its difficult. Understanding that there are rotten apples in Law Enforcement, it seems like...

I don't know, but I don't agree with all the LEO bashing that goes on here sometimes. Its not so bad when someone makes a comment about a specific action by a specific LEO, but then everyone starts in on rumors and the "this is what I heard" stories. Sad. LEO's are as valuable to this country as its soldiers but get zero respect (although some deserve the ridicule).

I'm not saying its not right or that you shouldn't post your opinions, but how about some stories of the great things our LEO's do every day...

I respect and appreciate all that LEOs do. I'd hate to be without them. However, there are rotten apples in the barrel and those are the only ones I need to worry about - thus the discussion, for me.

I don't need to prepare for the good things that happen to me.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by MountainBear

I don't know, but I don't agree with all the LEO bashing that goes on here sometimes. Its not so bad when someone makes a comment about a specific action by a specific LEO, but then everyone starts in on rumors and the "this is what I heard" stories. Sad. LEO's are as valuable to this country as its soldiers but get zero respect (although some deserve the ridicule).

I'm not saying its not right or that you shouldn't post your opinions, but how about some stories of the great things our LEO's do every day...

I think LEOs get PLENTY of respect in this country, along with plenty of criticism. Both are justified. All too often, though, LEOs use the fact that they preform an important public service and do a job that can be dangerous and unpleasant to avoid justified criticism.

[MountainBear]

I think LEOs get PLENTY of respect in this country, along with plenty of criticism. Both are justified. All too often, though, LEOs use the fact that they preform an important public service and do a job that can be dangerous and unpleasant to avoid justified criticism.

And at least some of the avoidance comes from the fact that a lot of the criticism they get isn't justified. I'm not saying that its the case in the stories here, however, its quite often that people put themselves into avoidable situations where they have made a mistake and committed a crime and are then surprised when the LEO's treat them like someone who just broke the law...

[Partsproduction]

A lot of the anger comes from being treated like a criminal when no laws have been broken. I say to cops who like to intimidate 'civilians' and brow beat them that they deserve the hatred they get.

[CounterOfBeans]

If LEO's would simply clean house internally and cull out the bad apples on their own when individuals clearly need attitude adjustments, they wouldn't have to complain about lack of public support and folks like ZachS likely wouldn't feel compelled to reach out to their fellow public members with a thread like this.

The FACT is however, that people routinely do feel compelled to do just that because they do know right from wrong and they do have reasonable expectations as Citizens to not have to defend themselves from those who are literally paid to protect and serve them.

It's not cop-bashing to have a discussion like this. It's reporting reality as it is, from those who have suffered the inconvenience or injury or insult or all of the above at the the hands of LEO's whose disposition doesn't even approach the level of respect that public members have a right to expect and demand.

Yes, there are many, many good officers out there. But because of their indifference or apathy or fraternal code of protecting their own as a law enforcement community, they paints themselves into the corner of the public's disapproval because, in the same way they can't tell good public members from bad public members, public members can't tell good officers from the bad officers either.

Respect is a two way street. You've got to give it to get it. And it's easier to lose it than to build or repair it. It's a tenuous and fragile confidence game that is lost when abusive officer's enjoy the insulation of a circle of wagons.

If you intend to swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution(s), you better intend to study and understand the spirit and intent those documents and be prepared to make tough decisions about fellow officers who clearly show no interest or patience for what their oath means, because those who intentionally avoid knowledge about the spirit and intent of the Constitution(s) and yet swear an oath in order benefit from the public's pocket books are criminals, acting under color of law.

If good police officers want to get on the fast track toward regaining the public's confidence and support, thereby vastly improving their daily lives at work, then making very public examples of a substantial string of known bad cops would be the most effective way to do that, in my opinion. Continuing down the track illustrated by ZachS' thread, simply ensures the erosion of their public support; ultimately their irrelevance.

The Declaration of Independence provides a constant reference to the conditions that spawned our great Country. We The People cling hard to our desire and preference to want to trust and appreciate our police officers, but their grip slips a little every time they are wantonly abused. It's human nature to resist abuse.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by CounterOfBeans

If LEO's would simply clean house internally and cull out the bad apples on their own when individuals clearly need attitude adjustments, they wouldn't have to complain about lack of public support and folks like ZachS likely wouldn't feel compelled to reach out to their fellow public members with a thread like this.

Yep... just like bad teachers, it seems like bad cops never get fired. Despite the fact that these jobs are most definitely not for everyone, it seems like it almost takes a felony conviction for bad teacher or a bad cop to lose their job. And their superiors are either happy to let their bad behavior slide or too intimidated by their unions and civil service protections to take the actions that need to be taken.

There's no similarly sensitive job in the private sector where an employee can get away with anywhere near the same level of malfeasance and not get fired.

[Trlsmn]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Yep... just like bad teachers, it seems like bad cops never get fired. Despite the fact that these jobs are most definitely not for everyone, it seems like it almost takes a felony conviction for bad teacher or a bad cop to lose their job. And their superiors are either happy to let their bad behavior slide or too intimidated by their unions and civil service protections to take the actions that need to be taken.

There's no similarly sensitive job in the private sector where an employee can get away with anywhere near the same level of malfeasance and not get fired.

The need to make a profit and stay in business weeds out the liabilities unfortunately the public sector as a whole is exempt from the realities of the real world.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by Trlsmn

The need to make a profit and stay in business weeds out the liabilities unfortunately the public sector as a whole is exempt from the realities of the real world.

Yep - but while most bad public employees* will do nothing more than waste taxpayer money (or time in the DMV line, etc.), bad teachers and cops frequently ruin lives.



*let's save the comments about there being no other kind for a different discussion

[elsullo]

Regarding police officers not knowing (or obeying) the Oregon laws, I hope everyone knows that it is STILL illegal in Oregon to have boxing matches with kangaroos.....................elsullo

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by elsullo

Regarding police officers not knowing (or obeying) the Oregon laws, I hope everyone knows that it is STILL illegal in Oregon to have boxing matches with kangaroos.....................elsullo

Like I already said, I'm not going to discuss the details of the incident that led to my arrest.

[elsullo]

I was NOT implying that policemen are kangaroos. I was talking about the large, bipedal marsupials from Australia, and there really is an Oregon law against boxing with them.........................elsullo

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by elsullo

I was NOT implying that policemen are kangaroos. I was talking about the large, bipedal marsupials from Australia, and there really is an Oregon law against boxing with them.........................elsullo

And I'm NOT implying in ANY WAY that I could have been conducting an ILLEGAL KANGAROO BOXING MATCH at the time of this incident.

[elsullo]

Nudge nudge. Say no more, eh?.....................elsullo

[CounterOfBeans]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Yep... just like bad teachers, it seems like bad cops never get fired. Despite the fact that these jobs are most definitely not for everyone, it seems like it almost takes a felony conviction for bad teacher or a bad cop to lose their job. And their superiors are either happy to let their bad behavior slide or too intimidated by their unions and civil service protections to take the actions that need to be taken.

Originally Posted by ZachS

And their superiors are either happy to let their bad behavior slide or too intimidated by their unions and civil service protections to take the actions that need to be taken.

There you go ZachS. I'd rather not rain on the upbeat turn that the latest posts of this thread have taken, but I think you nailed a big part of the problem that your thread has raised issue with, with what you said in the quote above. Public service unions are an element of what I was referring to when I used the "circle the wagons" expression.

Judging by the number of similar stories of abuse shared by other members here on this particular thread and other threads, there's clearly a common thread that resonates in them all.

My guess is that those who are chafing a little about "police-bashing" on this thread, whether vocally or quietly, are maybe current or former LE folks themselves or have LE family members or friends that they love and feel protective of.

I can totally appreciate how a conversation like this can be uncomfortable for them, but at the same time, I hope they can view this thread not as an attack, but as an invitation to suspend their personal feelings and internalize the fact that, like it or not, people who should not have stories of overt abuse, DO, and that these stories are simply honest report cards of how the People feel about how their government functions. If the report cards are uncomfortable to read, it's because government needs to change it's behavior toward the ones that give it permission to exist.

Public service unions are, in my view, repugnant to the notion of why the Constitution was created. For our country to arrive at a point where The People are saddled with the obscenity of an organization(s) created by public servants, for public servants, is an inversion of the hierarchy of political power. If it's coddled and apologized for by too many for too long, it spoils the very point and purpose for having a country to celebrate on the 4th of July, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, etc., in my opinion.

Again, to be sure, I do want to give credit where it's due because there are good people wearing uniforms and they deserve the respect that cloaks their position. Regarding the public's role, the good faith intentions and deeds of those good public servants suffer when The People succumb to the fashion of treating public servants with undue over-awe. It encourages them and their organizations to feel entitled to and accustomed to treatment, privileges and immunities that even The People, under the law, don't enjoy.

Being the same frail human beings that we all are, it's not hard to imagine how extending to public servants, or anyone for that matter (celebrities for example), more reverence than what is due to them, i.e. fear, overzealous accolades, cowering posture, etc., it erodes humility and warps the sense of their place in our form of government.

Such reverence bloats the ego. It cultivates their corruptability and when individuals succumb to the temptations of abuse, they do so under the gaze of their ranks collectively. When those individuals get away with abuse of authority, the precedent sends the message to their community that contempt for their oath of office has a green light.

The fact that more than one contribution to this thread advocates cowering to direct threat of physical harm or even death, rather than hazarding even a polite, respectful inquiry into an officer's' actions, is in-your-face evidence that this progression is maturing very well.

What should be the forgivably rare exception of corruption or abuse can quietly become commonplace ENOUGH that its effect on the public's perspective sadly outshines the examples of good faith efforts by those who work hard at being diligent, respectful, responsive public employees. In turn, those good public employees must suffer the effects of being guilty in the public's eye by association. In the case of LEOs, that effect may put an officer at risk; a risk that they shouldn't have to be subjected to.

The conduct of an officer who is even remotely versed on the limitations of his/her authority would never be the cause of such stories. Only individuals whose indoctrinated ignorance of the spirit and letter of the Constitution(s), coupled with innate personality issues, could be so rabidly contemptuous of the public's invocation of it. Such demeanor fits only a criminal whose mind knows they've violated someone, but whose heart is governed only by the law of the jungle.

LE would benefit so much if they only took cleaning their own house more seriously.

[bumster1911]

^^^^^^^

Well said CounterOfBeans.