Thread: Why are Gun Shop owners so ignorant of the law?

Or maybe it is only Gun Shops in Coos Bay?

Recently the Gun Shop where I always go to do interstate transfersrs closed. So I go to Hole in the Wall Gun Shop and say "I have three rifles to transfer from Iowa and one is from a non FLL holder" The new owner says he can't do it because it is "against the law" for him to receive a firearm from an out of state person!!!!! I then told him the law clearly states it is legal. He then argues with me about it and says he will look into it. He has been in business for how long without knowning the law?! oh and he just lost $90.

So my friend and I go to Empire Firearms and try again. Three guns one from private person. Ok the guy says. Later that day my friend goes back in and the owner says no they can't recieve from private person. I go in this morning and ask what the heck? The owner tells me it is against the law!! LOL I tell him it is perfectly legal. He replies "J***** called Anthony at ATF 6 months ago and he said it was illegal" Well I say he told you the wrong info. He replies he will not do it. LOL And then he never says another thing to me!!!! At least the other guy in there kept talking to me and said he will "check on it" Well it is too late you just lost $90.

I did send them the link to the BATF site where it CLEARLY says it is legal.

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

Legality aside, I know it's legal, if they don't wan't to do it there is no law that says they have to. Find another FFL to handle it for you.

Originally Posted by Paradox

Legality aside, I know it's legal, if they don't wan't to do it there is no law that says they have to. Find another FFL to handle it for you.

Of course they do not have to do it. BUT both places said it was against the law. Yes already found a place to do the transfer and he is in North Bend.

It's very common for FFLs to only accept out of state transfers from other FFLs. The FFL needs to have a certain amount of documentation for their bound book to verify the origin of the firearm. When I worked in the business I handled all the transfers for the company I was at. Never once was there an issue with documenting guns that were shipped from FFLs. About half of the guns that came from private parties did not have what we needed included with the guns. Regardless of how clearly we gave them instructions on what we required for the transfer to be done on this end.

Personally I think they'd do well to just say they won't accept then from private parties on general policy, no exceptions, but maybe they think it's just easier for them to say it's against the law than explain they don't really want to deal with the potential BS? I don't know. I hate plain yellow mustard that comes on most burgers and sandwiches you get in restaurants. The look I get when I order them without that horrible yellow slop is like I have two heads or something. People will even try to argue with me that I really do want the mustard, I don't know what I am missing etc etc. If I tell them I just hate crappy mustard they will argue even more most of the time. Instead I say I am allergic to it, saves us all a lot of BS, it's hard to argue with food allergy. Maybe it's kind of like that?

Partially, they are right. It's a federal offense for a non FFL holder to mail a gun through USPS.

Originally Posted by kaoboi503

Partially, they are right. It's a federal offense for a non FFL holder to mail a gun through USPS.

WRONG!! only handguns!!! "A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun"

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

Isn't there an exception if you are returning (UPS) a firearm to a manufacturer for repair work?

In that case, you would be sending to an FFL and receiving from an FFL

Originally Posted by Capn Jack

Isn't there an exception if you are returning (UPS) a firearm to a manufacturer for repair work?

In that case, you would be sending to an FFL and receiving from an FFL

Yes you can send directly to the manufacturer and after repair they can send back directly to you. I just had this happen to me with a Cooper JSR, three times. I sent by Priortiy mail USPS and they returned it by UPS. They paid both ways.

Yup, sending to manufacture for repair is legal. I just did that few weeks ago using UPS.

I thought UPS is the only company that can transport firearms.

They can send it back to YOU because it is YOUR gun, there is no transfer.

It would be like having to redo the title for your car every time you took it to the shop. It is your car so until you sell it there is no transfer.

As an FFL I receive many guns from unlicensed folks, I too was concerned in the beginning, but after discussing it with the atf, I have no further concerns.

Originally Posted by billdeserthills

As an FFL I receive many guns from unlicensed folks, I too was concerned in the beginning, but after discussing it with the atf, I have no further concerns.

For an FFL to recieve from a non-ffl is his permission........

Most lawmakers don't know the law............ the police don't know the law.........

Originally Posted by Angler

WRONG!! only handguns!!! "A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun"

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

So they are still partially right.

Originally Posted by kaoboi503

So they are still partially right.

NO. One has nothing to do with the other. There is NO law that says an FFL may not accept a gun from a non-ffl, if that was the case you would not be able to trade in a gun toward another gun would you?

Originally Posted by Paradox

NO. One has nothing to do with the other. There is NO law that says an FFL may not accept a gun from a non-ffl, if that was the case you would not be able to trade in a gun toward another gun would you?

Private parties sending guns through the mail equates to illegal. It's partially right. Minimally, maybe; but minimal is partially. Maybe, just maybe this gun shop is misinformed extending the stipulations of one certain law.

Originally Posted by kaoboi503

Private parties sending guns through the mail equates to illegal. It's partially right. Minimally, maybe; but minimal is partially. Maybe, just maybe this gun shop is misinformed extending the stipulations of one certain law.

It is NOT illegal for private parties to mail guns. Read the links that were posted. It is only illegal for people to use USPS to mail handguns.

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse my friend goes back to these gun shops to ask if they read my email and if so would they now do the transfers.

At Hole in the wall he was told they didn't look at the link to ATF I sent them. And then told him they would not do it because it is against STATE law and STATE law SUPERSEDES FEDERAL law!!!!!!

At Empire Firearms They did not look at the link and the person he talked to said the owner doesn't want to do it because she got in trouble once for receiving stolen guns FROM AN OREGON RESIDENT!!!!!

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.

As an FFL myself, it isn't so much that Gunstore Owners are Ignorant of the Law,
As it is that the ATF assigns a liason officer to each FFL. Many of these liason officer's will mis-inform the FFL, for instance I once received a gun from an FFL, the FFL's paperwork (license) was not in the box with the gun. I called the ATF (local office) and I was told that I could not hold on to the gun without that paperwork & I was forced to ship this gun back (at my cost) to the sender. Anyway, I have heard much misdirection & outright lies quoted from several ATF workers, it was obvious that they either never read or learned their own rules, or they were twisting the actual rules to their own benefit as needed on a case by case basis. Gundealers are notably inerested in keeping their license and when the ATF says Jump, most will simply wonder how high? I know I sure followed plenty of made-up rules before I began to learn the truth about many of ATF's directives, both verbal & written. I'm not saying the OP shouldn't be irritated, just want you to know why.

Originally Posted by Nwcid

It is NOT illegal for private parties to mail guns. Read the links that were posted. It is only illegal for people to use USPS to mail handguns.

Did you read the the rest of the short paragraph? I'm not defending ignorance, I'm just saying maybe they are following the law too tightly. The post above this one is better.

As a former FFL01 and then 03 holder, I think the issue is keeping up with the laws; with the breaking of even a minor regulation putting your license at risk, many FFL's (especially those with employees who help handle transfers) develop a routine and stick with it. If a transfer or sale isn't something that's part of that routine, they steer clear and refuse the sale.

I have to say, I can't really blame them. I talked to a gun shop owner about selling to a C&R license holder (which his shop wouldn't do) and he admitted it was because doing too many different kinds of transfers made it more likely one of his employees would misunderstand something and do something wrong, and he'd end up losing his license. Not fun, but then the BATFE is not known for being understanding.


Larry