Thread: TCGC Practical Rifle Sniper Match 2/13- HEADS UP!

The monthly Practical Rifle Match at TriCounty Gun Club will be held on the 13th of February. This month will be a bit different in that it will be a Sniper Match- accuracy will likely be rewarded- if it's anything like last years Sniper Match.
Who's going? And what are you bringing?

I am considering going. What is the typical round count? How far out do they normaly shoot?

Probably less than 50 rounds (bring more) and distances from 30
to 500 yds...more info will be available towards the end of the week.

I have heard that minimum rounds will be about 24, max rounds about 40. Distances aren't announced, but the gravel pit has distances from very close, out to about 500 yards. Good items to bring would be binoculars, rangefinder, and a little bag to put under the buttstock of your rifle. If you are in my squad, you will be welcome to use mine. Most of the other fellows that shoot there will also probably let people use their kit.

My impression of the people that shoot there is that they want to win, but want to do it by outshooting someone on an even playing field. They wouldn't want to cheapen their win by withholding a reasonable loan of equipment to someone.

I suppose if the equipment cost thousands of dollars and is very delicate I could understand not loaning it out, but that doesn't describe my gear, so I'll share.

Knee and elbow pads would help out, eye and ear protection are required.

Don't worry too much about how much your gear costs. Twice, the match has been won by people shooting stock Remington 308's with a stock Leupold 3-9 scope. They simply outshot everyone else. Any rifle that will shoot about an inch or so at 100 yards is plenty accurate enough. Knowing your trajectory well will be more useful than a rifle that shoots quarter inch groups.

Originally Posted by NoOne

Distances aren't announced, but the gravel pit has distances from very close, out to about 500 yards.

Aw, crap. I kept hearing that they normally announce the range to target, haven't practiced ranging too much.

Hi, you have a reference to a flyer, or directions and time for this event.. thnx. ( if i go i will take a armalite ar-10t ,w/16x mil-dot scope.and a 1000 yd range finder,and my bean bag for elevation hold at my buttstock)....thnxs noOne for the help finding the website,, looks like i got to be a member to come play?

They usually do announce the ranges to targets unless it is a surprise stage. Often, they will give exact yardages to many targets depending on the scenario. Ranges aren't a secret, and people with range finders (like me) will either tell you what ranges they get, or let you use them.

Originally Posted by NoOne

They usually do announce the ranges to targets unless it is a surprise stage. Often, they will give exact yardages to many targets depending on the scenario. Ranges aren't a secret, and people with range finders (like me) will either tell you what ranges they get, or let you use them.

Oh, ok, you meant that they weren't announcing in advance, in the email what the ranges were.

Yes, I was unclear about that in my initial posting. I should have said that they don't announce the distances prior to the match, and in surprise stages they don't even tell you at the match. Although in stages that aren't surprise stages, they will usually tell you the distances to all the targets.

Sorry for being unclear.

By the way, I loaned my range finder to 3 or 4 people yesterday. It seemed that binoculars were readily available. It is much easier to spot targets quickly with the larger field of vision provided by the binoculars than through the little monocular in the rangefinder.

NoOne,

No worries.

Those surprise stages were definitely the toughest part.

damn, i am so pissed i missed this. on the suprise targets, is there a set time to figure a shooting solution for range/wind/temp. etc.

I really blew it on stage one...for some reason I had 4 shots stuck in my head...so I took 4 shots, and hit the target 4 times...for a zero on the stage. After I was advised of the penalty, I re-read the description that Randy read to us. It very clearly said "Fire two rounds ONLY. If you fire more than two rounds, you will get a zero for the stage." So, I just screwed it up. My only consolation was that at least I hit the target with all 4 rounds.

I really liked stage 2. That was my best stage in the match. I hit all 5 targets, and got 4 of them with the first shot so at least I ended on a positive note.

I had enough time to find the targets with binoculars, then use my electronic range finder, adjust the elevation turret and fire. I didn't really worry about the temperature, humidity etc, because it was almost exactly the weather conditions that I used in my Exbal ballistics program. Temperature may have been off my 3-5 degrees, pressure off by 1-2%.

Because the match was down in the pit, wind really wasn't too much of an issue for me. In past matches in this gravel pit, I noted the same thing. I think most of the wind goes over top of the gravel pit.

My problems are far more basic than wind... On stage one as I removed my rifle from the case, I noticed that the elevation turret had been spun, and I didn't know which way. After mounting this scope on this rifle, I neglected to put in a zero stop like I usually do.. Of course when I adjusted the turret back to zero, I was exactly one rotation off where it should have been. The first shot, no one could see. Shot #2 was low, so then I knew what to do. By then stage #4 was a foregone deal, so I spent most of the remainder of the match trying to get myself to forget about a stage that was over with. Live and learn...now I'll always have zero stops on all my Mark 4 Leupolds. Naturally, the only one without a zero stop was on the rifle I used yesterday.

I didn't do too well, but since it was my first time with any firearms competition, and I have never shot that rifle past 100 yards before (and only taken it to the range 3 times prior), I guess I didn't do too bad. Can't wait to see where I placed in the results.

The order I shot the stages was 3, 1, 2, 5, 4.

Stage 3 - I screwed this up pretty good. I knew my zero was a bit off, so I figured I would take a shot @ the shortest distance, and hold slightly left. First shot was a hit, so I decided to take another easy shot at the ball next to it, but I held dead center, and missed. That wrecked my confidence, and I tried an additional shot there, with the same hold (stupid), and missed. Moved to the next distance, but at that point my confidence was shot, and I didn't correct like I know I should have.

Stage 1 - Got lucky that while in the staging area, we could see the targets, and while we didn't know they were for that stage, someone decided to range it, so when I got to the top of the ridge, I atleast had a rough idea of the range. However, I had a poor setup for that stage. I wasn't expecting the lack of time to setup my (minimal) gear. My ammo was in a box in my jacket pocket, my range card was in another pocket, my scope caps were on. I fought with the cardboard box for my ammo, barely got the rifle loaded, and rushed through it. I also have no idea if my calculations were correct for 500 yards. I don't know where I hit on this, or if I missed the board completely, but I know I didn't score on stage one.

Stage 2 - As before, my setup wasn't very good for this, and I wasn't sure if working as a team we were supposed to use just one shooter. We tried to work together, but at the same time, we were both trying to get our own hits. With no range finder, and no binoculars, we were at a serious disadvantage here, but we were both walking our shots in, spotting for each other. I think I got two hits, and had just missed a 3rd by a small amount, and was about to hit it, when the buzzer went. One of the score keepers told me that I would have had it, if there was five more seconds. As before, single loading rounds out of the box put me in a bad spot as fast as we were going.

Stage 5 - This actually went well. I had time to calm down a bit, and by now I KNEW that my zero was a bit high and right of where it should be, so I was able to compensate pretty quickly. I had to fight my habit of immediately ejecting the fired round, but I managed ok, even if my positions looked funny. I sure wasn't going to win any style points, but I went 4 for 4 on this stage, with a time of 101.57 seconds. Best part of this was that I really knew what my rifle was doing after that, because I held just left of the bottom left corner of the target.

Stage 4 - With a confirmation of where I was hitting, I went into this stage with increased confidence. I knew I could either go for prone shots at the 315 yard target, and probably hit each time, or I could challenge myself a bit more, by shooting from the sitting position on the 3rd target (266 yards). First shot was high, but I knew that as soon as I pulled the trigger, but now my windage was perfect, so I just held at the bottom of the target on my next target, and scored a hit. Missed the third shot, then transitioned to the 315 yard target and engaged it prone. First shot was called a miss by the spotter, and I could see why he thought that, as I could see a dust cloud about 5 feet to the right. But I knew I hit it, and I could see the target swinging, which was confirmed by a few others on the line, so I got the points. The dust was from the richochet. 5th shot was a hit as well.

Golf Balls - We were given 5 rounds to shoot 2 golf balls at about 100 yards. First shot I aimed a bit low, and got a good hit on the ball. 2nd and 3rd shots were a hair high, just over the top. Drop my elevation 1/2" and got a good hit on the 4th shot.

From a learning perspective, I wish we could get feedback as to where we hit at the 500 yard spot, as I would love to find out how my dope charts were there.

Next time, I am bringing binoculars, and I will have a different setup. My rifle and scope are capable, I just need to figure out a better "workflow". I need to make sure I have a solid zero, and check my dope charts.

Overall, I think it was run well, and it was a great experience.

A little trivia:

The word "dope" for shooting and targeting means "Data On Previous Engagements".

Originally Posted by NoOne

A little trivia:

The word "dope" for shooting and targeting means "Data On Previous Engagements".

Well there you go. The only "real" data I had was for 100 yards.

Oh well, I did okay, tied for 22nd. So, I scored in the top half. Not bad for my first competition ever.

Itgoesboom,

You should be very pleased with that placement. It was your first match, and you were shooting against a group of people with high skill levels.

My suggestions would be to write down what you learned about yourself and your equipment...what worked, and what didn't work. Then record the things that you think you need work on, what would help you in a similar match, what you would do differently, and why. The why is important, because as you record it, you can learn quite a bit about how you process shooting information...that alone is something else to learn.

Of course, having more data available is always a big help. I have a Leupold Mark4 with the TMR reticle. There are 10 hashmarks where the mil dots, and half mil dots would be. I make up a trajectory card showing:
1. Where each mil and half mil hits (100, 137, 165, 189, 321, 346 and so on) so if targets are close to where the hash marks are I can shoot without adjusting the scope turrets
2. What the elevation (in MOA or clicks) is for each 25 yards out to about 600 yards. You can go further if you have enough room to put it on the rifle somewhere.
3. Where each click on the rifle hits. This is hard to explain, but the Exbal program allows me to see the exact yardage for where each click is zeroed. It looks sort of like this:
6=162
7=167
8=173
9=177
10=182 And so on. This way, if you make a range card showing targets spread around the field of fire, you know exactly how many clicks to get perfectly on target. This is a little better than guessing between the 25 yard marks. Often, time will dictate which elevation system to use. If I don't have data, I have to guess, and that always makes me feel less confident than actually knowing what the elevation is.

If you need help with elevation charts, I'm sure one of the fellows with the ballistic programs can help you. There are lots of ballistic programs on the internet too that will do much of this. I use the Exbal program because it is what I have loaded into a palm pilot. A friend of mine has a program that is even more sophisticated and will process in spin drift...If I remember right, it was 1.65 inches at 500 yards. Some day, I hope to be able to shoot well enough under field conditions that I would notice the 1.65 inches at 500 yards.

NoOne,

I've been doing exactly that, going through what worked and what didn't.

What I found was that my rifle, scope, and ammo are all sufficient for this type of match. And once I figured out what was happening downrange, I found that my marksmanship was actually okay as well, although there is room for improvement. I was rushing my trigger pulls, so I need to slow those down a bit.

The biggest limitation was the uncertainty regarding my ballistics information. I not only didn't have confirmation of where it would hit at the longer ranges, my estimates, which were run through the JBM ballistics calculator, were based on further estimates of my velocity, since I don't have a chronograph. So I knew that there could be a fair amount of error, which is what I saw.

For example, my calculations through JBM show that I should have needed 15 clicks of elevation (or 3.7 in/100 yard clicks) for the 325 yard target. I dialed 14 clicks (3.5 in/100 yard), and held at the bottom of the target, and scored 4 for 4.

Beyond that, I just hadn't properly thought out both the equipment selection, or proper usage of the equipment I did have. For example, I would have been significantly more efficient during stage 2, had I taken the time to fully load my rifle's internal mag, rather than single load each time after taking a shot. And I could have increased that efficiency further by having the rounds ready to go on a buttstock carrier, or with a detachable mag system. In the end, I needed 5 more seconds, and I would have been able to take down one more target on that stage. So the increased efficiency would have made a significant impact in my scores. So that will be an additional thing I work on, prior to the next match.

Also, position shooting looks like it can be a good way of getting some high scores. I will be practicing more from standing and kneeling, to take advantage of that.

I like your idea #3, I'll have to do something similar, once I actually nail down the velocity of my loads, and can get a chance to practice at a longer distance. Any idea of a good place to practice at the longer ranges, so I can get the proper dope information?

Tuesday night (tonight) at 5pm there is a 600 yard shoot at tri-county. Meet at the 200/300 yard line about 4:30 to 5PM then we will set up targets. We shoot illuminated targets from either prone or from a bench. Shooting prone at 600 yards will really help with the trigger pull issue.

You have to have a good 300 yard zero to start at the 600 yard line. If you don't have the zero, and aren't on paper at 600 yards, you have to stop shooting because they just don't like the idea of not knowing where the rounds are landing...makes sense to me.

If you can show up early, you can get your 300 yard zero. I will probably go out about 3pm or so, PM, or email me direct and I'll be happy to help you get the 300 yard zero prior to tonight's shoot.